Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: A South Asian origin for M17 Haplogroup?

  1. #1
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Gender
    Politics
    Putinism
    Posts
    5,212
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Post A South Asian origin for M17 Haplogroup?

    I have recently acquired a new publication, Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer. Here, amongst other things, Oppenheimer says the following:

    For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of "male Aryan invasion" of India.One age estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming to Europe.

  2. #2
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 @ 02:56 PM
    Subrace
    Corded/UP
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Politics
    Apolitical
    Posts
    774
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I have recently acquired a new publication, Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer. Here, amongst other things, Oppenheimer says the following:

    But the question stand: how did M17 make it to Europe without any other Indian genes?

    And why do Indians have other Eastern European genes in small amounts?

    Wouldn't the opposite be true if M17 came from India? Wouldn't the Eastern Europeans have small amounts of Indian genes today, as well as EU19 (the result of the M17 mutation)?

    So how did EU19 make it in such massive amounts onto the Eurasian steppes all by itself?

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Last Online
    Sunday, January 2nd, 2011 @ 09:33 PM
    Ethnicity
    eurafrican
    Ancestry
    eurafrican
    Country
    Other Other
    Location
    south of heaven
    Gender
    Age
    48
    Occupation
    fireman
    Politics
    liberal
    Posts
    340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    But the question stand: how did M17 make it to Europe without any other Indian genes?

    And why do Indians have other Eastern European genes in small amounts?

    Wouldn't the opposite be true if M17 came from India? Wouldn't the Eastern Europeans have small amounts of Indian genes today, as well as EU19 (the result of the M17 mutation)?

    So how did EU19 make it in such massive amounts onto the Eurasian steppes all by itself?
    in a community where gene flow is not blocked or isolated equilibrium or tendency to similarity would occur. diversity may not mean it is older it may mean that it is more crowded or more producing that would be very dependent on geography and climate. HG3 would more chance to replicate itself in the generious Indus valley than vast plains of asia. so i do not have enough proof to object it but i will say that it is not necessary. btw what are other indian markers.
    best regards

  4. #4
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 @ 02:56 PM
    Subrace
    Corded/UP
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Politics
    Apolitical
    Posts
    774
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by asparukh
    in a community where gene flow is not blocked or isolated equilibrium or tendency to similarity would occur. diversity may not mean it is older it may mean that it is more crowded or more producing that would be very dependent on geography and climate. HG3 would more chance to replicate itself in the generious Indus valley than vast plains of asia. so i do not have enough proof to object it but i will say that it is not necessary. btw what are other indian markers.
    best regards

    Like I said before, in terms of the Y-chromosome, Indians are mostly Caucasoid. But not entirely.

    In terms of mtDNA, Indians are only about 20-30% Caucasoid.

    This is all fact, not speculation.

    On the other hand, Eastern Europeans are Caucasoid both in terms of the Y-chromosome and mtDNA.

    So it follows...

    If Indians migrated north and carried EU19 with them to the Europeans, then why aren't there any south Asian gene markers in Europe?

    By South Asian gene markers, I mean the most commonly found Y-chromosome and mtDNA markers found in Dravidian populations.

    EU19 can't be considered a non-Caucasoid gene marker because it's from a large family of typically Caucasoid markers. It also dosn't have any link links with south-east and east asia, unlike the other genes found in Dravidians and Hindus.

    More info...

    http://batzerlab.lsu.edu/Publication...20Research.pdf

  5. #5
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 @ 02:56 PM
    Subrace
    Corded/UP
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Politics
    Apolitical
    Posts
    774
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Hang on a minute...

    If M17 originated in India or Pakistan 51,000 years ago (see Loki's original post), and then made its way to Central Asia...

    ...and we know that modern man arrived in Europe about 40,000 years ago...

    Then it appears as if M17, which then led to EU19 (R1a) was part of the original group that migrated to Europe from Asia somewhere.

    Therefore, it is entirely possible that when M17 originated in India, the sub-continent was entirely Caucasoid, or at least proto-Caucasoid.

    This would mean then that Europeans came from India - or at least some Europeans came from India or Pakistan.

    However, then, it seems that there were invasions of India from the north by Caucasoids once India was already a mix of Caucasoid and south Asian. So, in effect, the Europeans came back to their homeland...

    I think that makes a lot of sense...right???

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Last Online
    Thursday, July 27th, 2006 @ 09:12 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Gender
    Politics
    Race Realism/Hereditarian
    Religion
    Agnostic
    Posts
    598
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Hang on a minute...

    If M17 originated in India or Pakistan 51,000 years ago (see Loki's original post), and then made its way to Central Asia...

    ...and we know that modern man arrived in Europe about 40,000 years ago...

    Then it appears as if M17, which then led to EU19 (R1a) was part of the original group that migrated to Europe from Asia somewhere.

    Therefore, it is entirely possible that when M17 originated in India, the sub-continent was entirely Caucasoid, or at least proto-Caucasoid.

    This would mean then that Europeans came from India - or at least some Europeans came from India or Pakistan.

    However, then, it seems that there were invasions of India from the north by Caucasoids once India was already a mix of Caucasoid and south Asian. So, in effect, the Europeans came back to their homeland...

    I think that makes a lot of sense...right???
    I think you just might be correct.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Vetinari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Friday, June 15th, 2012 @ 04:40 AM
    Subrace
    Other
    Country
    United States United States
    Gender
    Politics
    Nationalist
    Religion
    Lovecraftian
    Posts
    244
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I have recently acquired a new publication, Out of Eden by Stephen Oppenheimer. Here, amongst other things, Oppenheimer says the following:
    M17 couldn't be 51,000 years old. M17 is descended from both M173 and M45 which are both younger than that.

  8. #8
    Member Dienekes_Pontikos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Last Online
    Tuesday, February 8th, 2005 @ 08:48 PM
    Subrace
    Southern Europoid
    Gender
    Politics
    Hellenic Patriotism
    Religion
    Orthodox Christian
    Posts
    181
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    EU19 can't be considered a non-Caucasoid gene marker because it's from a large family of typically Caucasoid markers. It also dosn't have any link links with south-east and east asia, unlike the other genes found in Dravidians and Hindus.

    More info...
    Eu19 (R1a), and the entire haplogroup R is phylogenetically linked with Native American haplogroup Q (both being derived from P), with East Asian haplogroup O, and South Asian haplogroup L (both being derived from K). Other Caucasoid haplogroups, at least J, G and I are not derived from K. So, the Y chromosome phylogeny does not have a nice split between Caucasoid markers and non-Caucasoid markers.

    We should keep in mind that the spread (or independent origins?) of the Caucasoid morphology is not necessarily the same as the spread of genetic markers. To determine how early R and R1a bearers looked, we will have to examine skeletal remains of early R and R1a bearers.

  9. #9
    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Wednesday, March 28th, 2007 @ 02:56 PM
    Subrace
    Corded/UP
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Politics
    Apolitical
    Posts
    774
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    Eu19 (R1a), and the entire haplogroup R is phylogenetically linked with Native American haplogroup Q (both being derived from P), with East Asian haplogroup O, and South Asian haplogroup L (both being derived from K). Other Caucasoid haplogroups, at least J, G and I are not derived from K. So, the Y chromosome phylogeny does not have a nice split between Caucasoid markers and non-Caucasoid markers.

    We should keep in mind that the spread (or independent origins?) of the Caucasoid morphology is not necessarily the same as the spread of genetic markers. To determine how early R and R1a bearers looked, we will have to examine skeletal remains of early R and R1a bearers.

    Well it's more complicated than that.

    R1b and R1a are both closely related and they are major European haplogroups.

    They do share ancestry with Asian haplogroups, but if you look closely at the Y-chromosome family tree, you'll see that other "caucasoid" haplogroups share ancestry with African lineages.

    Many genetecists often say these days that Caucasoids are a mix of Asians and Africans. They are right, up to a point. Hence the varied ancestry of European haplogroups.

    But Caucasoids aren't just a mix of Asians and Africans. If anyone just says that, they are being very misleading.

    Caucasoids are a mix of different ancestors, who then adapted to life in Europe and became the white race.

    Now excuse me, I have fifteen deadlines to see to, and if I don't get everything done, I'll be at the job center next year looking for a new job....

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: Sunday, June 26th, 2016, 12:51 AM
  2. Fossils Point to Asian Origin of Primates
    By Englisc in forum Paleoanthropology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Saturday, May 7th, 2016, 07:53 PM
  3. Origin of Y chromosome haplogroup N in Asia
    By laurent in forum Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Thursday, December 21st, 2006, 07:06 AM
  4. The Possible Origin of HG3 Haplogroup in South/West Asia?
    By Loki in forum Population Genetics
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •