A Guide to Euro Y-Chromosome Gene Markers

[Polak]

As we all know, R1a (HG3, EU19) is widely accepted as a Slavic gene marker amongst those of European heritage. R1a didn't originate in Slavs, but it is now extremely common in us, and was probably even more common when we were a single entity. The marker probably originated in Eastern Europe/Western Asia. Though there is increasing evidence now that it may have come from Central Asian Caucasoids.

On the other hand, R1b (HG1, EU18) is commonly referred to as an "Old" European gene marker. That's mostly because it reaches its highest levels in the Basques. However, it is very common in all western Europeans, including those of Celtic extraction. That's a bit strange, considering the Celts came from western Asia originally. But my proposal is that most Celts today are actually old Europeans who took on Celtic culture.

And what about Germanic genes? Well, in the past, armchair geneticists speculated that HG2 was such a gene marker. But looking at a Haplogroup map of Europe and the near East, it seemed that the Bulgarians and Georgians, for example, were more "Germanic" than the British or even the Dutch (see attachment). The reason for this mishap was the old Haplogroup classification system.

It seems clear now that geneticists lumped together a bunch of quite distinct gene markers under HG2. This old haplogroup has now been broken up into I (EU7) and F, G and J (EU8) branches.

Marker I is most common in Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and North Germans and Dutch - in other words, the core of the Germanic world. It is also common in the UK, and in Slavic populations which have had close contact with Germanic people (Croatians, Slovenians, Poles, Russians, Czechs and Ukrainians). Some southern European populations also show an incidence of I, most probably as a result of the movements of ancient German tribes from the north.

The marker did not originate in Germanic people per se, and actually precedes this group, but is the best one to associate with them.

F, G and J (EU8) are clearly from the near east, and are naturally most common in southern and south-eastern Europe.

E3b (EU4) is also a near eastern gene, and frequently seen in the southern Balkans.

The above are the most common Y-chromosome markers found in modern Europeans. All others are found sporadically on continental Europe, but seem to be much more common in Caucasoid populations in north Africa and the middle east, as well as in mixed Caucasoid/Negroid and Caucasoid/Mongol populations.

[Loki]

And what about Germanic genes? Well, in the past, armchair geneticists speculated that HG2 was such a gene marker. But looking at a Haplogroup map of Europe and the near East, it seemed that the Bulgarians and Georgians, for example, were more "Germanic" than the British or even the Dutch (see attachment). The reason for this mishap was the old Haplogroup classification system.

It seems clear now that geneticists lumped together a bunch of quite distinct gene markers under HG2. This old haplogroup has now been broken up into I (EU7) and F, G and J (EU8) branches.

Marker I is most common in Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and North Germans and Dutch - in other words, the core of the Germanic world. It is also common in the UK, and in Slavic populations which have had close contact with Germanic people (Croatians, Slovenians, Poles, Russians, Czechs and Ukrainians). Some southern European populations also show an incidence of I, most probably as a result of the movements of ancient German tribes from the north.

The marker did not originate in Germanic people per se, and actually precedes this group, but is the best one to associate with them.

This is a fascinating read, Polak. Would you be so kind as to provide us with some references regarding this "I" marker? I am very interested.

Thanks

Loki

[Stríbog]

But my proposal is that most Celts today are actually old Europeans who took on Celtic culture.

I have maintained this for a long time. The "stereotypically Irish" Brünns are generally accepted as being Cromagnid in derivation. The Keltic types actually made it to the British Isles quite late (c. 500-600 BCE) and were of a much more gracile and recent origin somewhere in central or Eastern Europe.

[Tore]

Another Male lineage common among European populations is Hg 16/N3/Eu13/Eu14/Tat-C, particulary in the North-East among the Finns, Balts, and Saami.

It was, and still is, thought that Hg 16 was a Mongoloid Male gene marker brought to Europe from Siberia due to high frequencies of Hg 16 among the Yakuts(87%) and Buryats (52%).
However, the mtDNA of both groups is predominately (~80%) East Asian, thus Hg 16 can be looked at as a Europid male gene marker brought to Siberia by Europeans. The fact that Hg 16 shows more diversity in NE Europe than in Siberia signifies that it has been in Europe longer, and therefore, likely originated their.

Hg 16 has 3 sub-branches, with one consituting Eu 13, and the other two forming Eu 14. It may very well be that Eu 13 is Mongoloid , as it is found in small frequencies only among the Mari and Udmurt, and is absent among Europeans.

[Polak]

Another Male lineage common among European populations is Hg 16/N3/Eu13/Eu14/Tat-C, particulary in the North-East among the Finns, Balts, and Saami.

It was, and still is, thought that Hg 16 was a Mongoloid Male gene marker brought to Europe from Siberia due to high frequencies of Hg 16 among the Yakuts(87%) and Buryats (52%).
However, the mtDNA of both groups is predominately (~80%) East Asian, thus Hg 16 can be looked at as a Europid male gene marker brought to Siberia by Europeans. The fact that Hg 16 shows more diversity in NE Europe than in Siberia signifies that it has been in Europe longer, and therefore, likely originated their.

Hg 16 has 3 sub-branches, with one consituting Eu 13, and the other two forming Eu 14. It may very well be that Eu 13 is Mongoloid , as it is found in small frequencies only among the Mari and Udmurt, and is absent among Europeans.

Oh yes, I forgot about HG16. Or rather, I didn't really want to touch it because I'm not as well versed on the subject as yourself.

Just curious Tronder, what do you think of this article?

http://racialreality.shorturl.com/

[Polak]

This is a fascinating read, Polak. Would you be so kind as to provide us with some references regarding this "I" marker? I am very interested.

Thanks

Loki

Sure, here is some of the reading that helped me out.

New Haplogroup System

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The haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3 are part of an older classification system that was used when less was known about the human Y-chromosome tree.

In 2002 the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) came out with a new classification system to standardize the way haplogroups are named. In the new system the main branches are assigned letters - from A through R. HG1 and HG3 just get new names - HG1 is named as a sub-branch of the letter R known as "R1b", and HG3 is in another sub-branch known as "R1a1". The situation with HG2 is more complex. It turns out that several very different branches of the human Y-chromosome tree had been lumped together under the label "HG2". In Europe, the HG2s included members of the F, G, I, and J branches.

The set of most common values for HG2 given here is based on a database of 140 results whose HG2 components were likely primarily of the haplogroup "I" branch. Haplogroup "I" is found in Central and Eastern Europe, but also accounts for almost all the HG2s in Northern Europe and the British Isles. Haplogroup "I" is thought to stem from a group (Gravettian culture) that arrived in Europe from the Middle East about 25,000 years ago. The Gravettian culture was "known for its Venus figurines, shell jewellery, and for using mammoth bones to build homes".

The other parts of HG2 - Haplogroups F, G, and J - are more common in Southern and Eastern Europe. They are believed to be the descendants of the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East who were the first to practice agriculture in Europe. Each of those branches will have their own set of common values - all different from that shown here for "I". If your values for DYS426, DYS438 and GGAAT1B07 match those of HG2 but you differ from the HG2 most common values in more than about ten markers, then you may belong to the F, G, or J parts of HG2.

A fascinating map of the distribution of haplogroups in Europe is given on page 1156 of Semino's 2000 paper "A Genetic Legacy of Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Extant Europeans: a Y Chromosome Perspective". Haplogroup R1b (HG1) is shown in green, R1a1 (HG3) is shown in purple, I is shown in blue, and F,G, and J are shown in red. Other haplogroups shown on the map but not discussed here are haplogroup E3b (yellow), and haplogroup N3a (pink).

Look at the map in this report...

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf

And also the original map I attached to the first post. The HG2 in the north is almost all I (EU7). But it's mostly EU8 in the south (except Sardinia, probably because of their very small founder population, which has been proved).

The human races calculator site is also of use in this case...

http://www.racearchives.com/calc/

[Polak]

Actually, no, the human races calculator is of no use.

I just checked it out, and it seems that the data on there is not only outdated, but there is no difference between EU7 and EU8 - both of which are still lumped under HG2.

[Tore]

Just curious Tronder, what do you think of this article?

The site seems to be an offshoot of the infamous "Racial Myths."

Nevertheless, the information on Hg 16 (Tat-C) is somewhat useful.

Here is what I concluded:

M9 seems to be the last genetic relic of the proto-Eurasian Race, which then diverged into Mongoloids Proper (defined by M175/M214 and consituting Superhaplogroup O) and another Eurasian sub-branch (defined by LLY22g and constituting Superhaplogroup N). Haplogroup 12, which, for all intents and purposes, is Mongoloid, is constituted by N, N1, and N2, who also form Eu 16. It doesn't appear that Hg 16 is derived from Hg 12, rather that Hg 12 arose earlier than Hg 16, and that the mutation LLY22g defines both. If this is the case, than the diverging of Mongoloids is seen through the diverging of Hg 16 and Hg 12, and Hg 16 was brought to Siberia by Caucasoids.

Another possibility is that the divergence took place later, and is seen through the sub-branches of Hg 16, which one (Eu 13/N3) is Mongoloid, and the other two (N3a, N3a1/Eu14) are Europid.
Of course, this cannot be inferred until it determined if sub-branch Eu 13 occurs among Siberians and Siberians only. If so, it can be conluded that Hg 16 was not brought to Siberia by Caucasoids.

These links are of use:

http://www.pnas.org/content/vol98/is...713050001.jpeg

http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

[Polak]

Oops, I feel like a bit of an ass just about now.

I mixed up EU8 with Eu10 in my original article.

In fact, EU8 is part of Haplotype I, but is a southern branch found in Basques and in Sardinia. It is not Germanic, and it is not found in the southern Balkans.

Gee, all these HGs, EUs get me muddled up sometimes. I wish they would come up with one decent system.

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

This is really great information. Please continue this line of thought as far as you are able. I am fascinated.