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Thread: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

  1. #71
    Senior Member Boerncian's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    Thanks

    Although to be fair, the signs do point that way.
    Northern IReland was originally created with it's borders rigged due to Unionist pressure.

    If they had made the borders around the historic Nine Counties of Ulster, then the Unionist majority would have been very tenous.
    So instead, they gave 1/3 of Ulster back to the Republic and drew the border around the Six North-Eastern Counties of Ulster to create Northen Ireland. These six counties were more densely populated with Unionists and they believed this would give them a permanent in-built artifical majority, effectively allowing them to rule that part of Ireland for the forseeable future.

    However, things haven't turned out that way.
    Now, three of the six counties of NI have Nationalist majority populations, and in all the overall population of NI isn't far off a 50/50 situation.

    In fact the last census of the province was rushed through by Unionist politicians for fear that a delay would show an overall Nationalist majority, thereby rubbishing any pretense that maintaining British rule there was based on the democratic voice of the people there.

    I guess this might well be why the Powersharing at Stormont has been revived after all these years, why London has given Dublin a greater say in how things are run, and why the IRA have now decided to call off hostilities.
    It might well be that everyone knows that re-unification is inevitable (although not everyone may accept it), and thus the way for intigrating North-East Ulster with the rest of Ulster and Ireland is being gradually eased in.


    In reality, the Unionists will not have any real problems becoming Irish citizens. Their economic, poltical and religious rights are guranteed by the constitution of the Irish Republic which is far more than the Nationalists have had under British rule.

    However, for many hardline Loyalists I think it's a matter of principle.
    They have been used to seeing themselves as superior and having the Nationalists live as second class citizens for longer than anyone can remember, automatically being in political and economic control. The idea of even sharing power with almost half of their neighbours (whom some have been raised to hate with a pathological hatred), far less joining them in the Irish Republic would be anathema to many of them.
    No offense my nationalist friends but there's plenty of pathological hatred among the Catholics.When there are Prod enclaves in Catholic areas of Northern Ireland they are treated every bit as bad as any Republican has ever been treated.If were to believe all the Republican propaganda on this thread the IRA never produced a thug all Nationalists are saints all Loyalist dimwits.The Constitution of the Irish Republic would scare any Protestant away.You're guaranteed freedom as long as you obey Roman Catholic laws ,such as no divorce,no contraception,and a host of other ones.
    Ireland historically was always divided there were Kings of Ulster,munster and so on.To hear Nationalist myth makers there was one Ard Ri after another in Irish history. Many Ulsterman would like to see an independent Ulster free of the UK and the Republic. The idea of being ruled by the most Catholic government in the world is not very appealing.Particularly given the horrendous problems with pederasty of some its clergy and the coverups. If you look at the percentage of Protestants in the republic now and what it was before the republic you can clearly see how not prejudiced and welcoming the Republic was. I don't think any of you haver actually lived in Ulster or you would no that hate is ingrained in both sides. I have lost two family members under the age of 14 to IRA bombers. They did not deserve that nor do the poor catholic innocents killed by loyalists. Recently some Loyalist in a Catholic enclave had the audacity to fly a union jack,his loving nationalist neighbors surrounded him and drove a screwdriver into his brain killing him. Boycots of Loyalsit merchants are common so they will be driven out of business,anyone who shops there is beaten up by local Sinn Fein thugs. Of course the loyalists do the same crap,but please do not paint Republicans as nothing but martyrs.
    In a new Europe and Ulster Republicwith guaranteed separation of church and state and perhaps dual citizenship with the UK or Republic would solve this issue. Once again the United Ireland myth is just that, it never existed even the Irish langauge has branchs that are very difffernt from each other and it is near impossible for one in one gorup to understand one in another.
    What is important is that both cultures survive,that neither people oppress the other ,and that we are not inundated with the unwashed massesof multiculturalism.I am not a Christian I don't give a good Thorburn's Damn about king or Pope or kirk.I care about my race and my culture.If there are people in Ireland weho care more about those old hoary Semite religions than keep their culture and race ,then they are going to end up like the American Indian who was too busy fighting each other to fight the white man,that is extinct or on a reservation.
    As I said in another thread Time to bury the hatchet,and not in each other's head!
    Triumphalism about the ultimate unification of Ireland and ridiculously naïve sanctimonious one sightedness, and flogging dead horses is not going to bring about change. Both sides glory in their ski mask thugs, who cold care less about anything other than theri drug,prostitution and extortion rackets.What kind of patriotic heroes rob banks, and run bordello's? The answer is the Irish Republican Army,and the Ulster Volunteer Force.You might say my motto is save the Irish peoples,screw the Irish governments. Unity throgh Truth not coersion!
    Last edited by Boerncian; Saturday, January 22nd, 2005 at 04:46 AM. Reason: typos

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    You do realise that Constitutions are amended through time and social change don't you? The rest of your musings aren't worth noting, I just saw you mentioned the ''Catholicism'' of the Constitution in your other thread.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    such as no divorce,no contraception,and a host of other ones.
    I think most traditional Protestants would be as in favour of those laws as any traditional Roman Catholic.
    The problem laws for Protestants there would be those which discriminate directly against them. I don't think I know anything about Irish Republic laws by the way, so I don't know if there are any such laws.

  4. #74
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    I think most traditional Protestants would be as in favour of those laws as any traditional Roman Catholic.
    I'm not sure. I suppose evangelicals and fundamentalists would be against contraception perhaps. Not sure what their stance on divorce is.
    Starting with the Church of England's Lambeth Council in the 1930's, most Protestant denominations have changed their ruling on artifical contraception to permitting it now.

    As for divorce, the Church of England was created specifically to allow Henry VIII to divorce so I'm not sure how against it they would be. It is certainly permissible

    The problem laws for Protestants there would be those which discriminate directly against them. I don't think I know anything about Irish Republic laws by the way, so I don't know if there are any such laws.
    I may be biased, but I can't think of any which would discriminate against them.
    Artifical contraception is freely available in the Republic, they could divorce, they would be free to practise their religion......there is even an Orange Walk planned in Cork!

    The only thing they might be deprived of is abortion, which is still illegal in the Republic for the moment. But I believe it is also illegal in N.I., where it differs from the rest of the UK and this position is supported by the majority of Unionists and Nationalists.

    Unlike N.I. where one Unionist politician once declared it to have a "Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People", the Constitution of the Republic has always maintained Religious Freedom and non-Discrimination against either Catholic or Protestant. This is based on the Procalmaition of the Irish Republic read out by Pearse at the GPO during the Easter Rebellion.
    Part of it reads:

    The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.
    This is in stark contrast to Northern Ireland which has long maintained an active policy of discrimination against Catholics there.

    The lot of Protestants currently living in the Republic is a much happier one than that of Catholics living in the North.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boerncian
    No offense my nationalist friends but there's plenty of pathological hatred among the Catholics.When there are Prod enclaves in Catholic areas of Northern Ireland they are treated every bit as bad as any Republican has ever been treated.
    Which enclaves are you reffering to?


    If were to believe all the Republican propaganda on this thread the IRA never produced a thug all Nationalists are saints all Loyalist dimwits.
    I haven't seen propoganda which says that. If I did, I wouldn't believe it.
    There were certainly progressive Unionists who marched with Catholics to protest against their treatement. Additionally, I'm sure there are Republican thugs just as there are everywhere else.

    The Constitution of the Irish Republic would scare any Protestant away.
    It doesn't scare away the Protestants that live in the Republic.
    Why would guaranteeing civil liberties frighten Protestants away?

    You're guaranteed freedom as long as you obey Roman Catholic laws ,
    Where in the Constitution does it say that?
    That might have been the case if Maria Duce had gotten it's way, but De Valera rejected their proposals.

    such as no divorce,
    I'm sure you can divorce in the Republic

    no contraception,[
    Artifical contraception is available in the Republic

    and a host of other ones.
    Like what? Abortion? That's also illegal in Northern Ireland and is a position supported by Nationalists and Unionists alike.


    Many Ulsterman would like to see an independent Ulster free of the UK and the Republic.
    You mean Loyalists as opposed to Unionists?
    The problem with that is that the don't either realise or care that N.I is not the same thing as Ulster. Ulster also incorporates 3 counties which have been part of the Republic since it's inception. I don't think you'd find much support there for an independent Ulster. It also explains the bemusment on the faces of people living in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan when someone like Paisley says - "Ulster says No!"

    The idea of being ruled by the most Catholic government in the world is not very appealing.
    Most Catholic government in the world? Hardly


    Particularly given the horrendous problems with pederasty of some its clergy and the coverups.
    Obviously this only happens within the Catholic Church, right?

    If you look at the percentage of Protestants in the republic now and what it was before the republic you can clearly see how not prejudiced and welcoming the Republic was.
    Do you have the figures to hand?

    I don't think any of you haver actually lived in Ulster or you would no that hate is ingrained in both sides.
    Who said it wasn't?

    I have lost two family members under the age of 14 to IRA bombers.
    You have my sympathy

    They did not deserve that nor do the poor catholic innocents killed by loyalists.
    Innocents on either side are undeserving of death. Agreed.

    Recently some Loyalist in a Catholic enclave had the audacity to fly a union jack,his loving nationalist neighbors surrounded him and drove a screwdriver into his brain killing him.
    Yes, that is the climate people live in the north.
    It also happened with a Catholic family for flying a Tyrone flag after the Galeic football finals in 2003. In saying that, most of my neighbours, Catholic or Protestant wouldn't fly their respective flags out of manners and consideration for those around them. It would likely be interpreted as a provocative act, due to the circumstances in which we live

    Boycots of Loyalsit merchants are common so they will be driven out of business,anyone who shops there is beaten up by local Sinn Fein thugs. Of course the loyalists do the same crap,but please do not paint Republicans as nothing but martyrs.
    As I said before, I have never stated that one side can do no wrong.
    That's untrue

    In a new Europe and Ulster Republicwith guaranteed separation of church and state
    Which is anathema to Catholics.

    and perhaps dual citizenship with the UK or Republic would solve this issue.
    Interesting proposition although whether either side would go for that is doubtful.
    For Republicans it is a token gesture which falls far short of their objective of a United Ireland.
    For Unionists, it's the thin end of the wedge which would be resented greatly and seen as merely a stepping stone to a United Ireland

    Once again the United Ireland myth is just that, it never existed
    Similar to the myth that Ulster has always been seperate from the rest of Ireland? Ireland has been united before, it was in the time of Brian Boru.
    Certainly the Northen Ui Neill and Connacht still maintained a degree of autonomy, but they did acknowledge the authority of the Ard Ri.
    That was pretty much the situation for many centuries. Pretty much like the devolved status in the UK just now.

    even the Irish langauge has branchs that are very difffernt from each other and it is near impossible for one in one gorup to understand one in another.
    Try getting someone from Cambridge to understand a Geordie and you end up with much the same situation. It doesn't inferr that English language doesn't exist in a meaningful way. Dialects exist in any language. The difference is mainly in the way it is spoken. If you asked a speaker of Munster dialect to write a letter to a speaker of Ulster dialect, it would be understandable.

    What is important is that both cultures survive,that neither people oppress the other and that we are not inundated with the unwashed massesof multiculturalism
    That seems reasonable.

    I am not a Christian I don't give a good Thorburn's Damn about king or Pope or kirk.
    I don't agree as I don't adhere to obsolete Scandinavian Neo-Paganism, but you are entitled to your beliefs.


    I care about my race and my culture.
    As do I. Commendable

    If there are people in Ireland weho care more about those old hoary Semite religions than keep their culture and race ,then they are going to end up like the American Indian who was too busy fighting each other to fight the white man,that is extinct or on a reservation.
    Interesting analogy, although in truth the religious aspect is a relatively new problem in the overall scheme of Irish resistance to British encroachment.
    One only needs to look at the union between Catholics and Protestants fighting for independence in the formation of the United Irishmen. Unfortunately, the Brits introduced the Orange Order after their defeat and commented gleefully that many Protestant United Irishmen were afterwards being seduced from their former loyalties.

    It's worth remembering that Irish Republicanism originated with the Presbyterians of Belfast, and those men such as Wolfe Tone are still honoured by Republicans today.


    As I said in another thread Time to bury the hatchet,and not in each other's head!
    I hope that can be.

    Triumphalism about the ultimate unification of Ireland and ridiculously naïve sanctimonious one sightedness, and flogging dead horses is not going to bring about change.
    Quite. Mere hard talk never accomplishes much

    Both sides glory in their ski mask thugs, who cold care less about anything other than theri drug,prostitution and extortion rackets.
    That reminds me, I have a discusion elsewhere to reply to

    What kind of patriotic heroes rob banks, and run bordello's?
    Well said.

    The answer is the Irish Republican Army,and the Ulster Volunteer Force.
    Allegedly, yes.

    You might say my motto is save the Irish peoples,screw the Irish governments. Unity throgh Truth not coersion!

    Amen
    Last edited by Milesian; Thursday, February 17th, 2005 at 01:01 PM.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    Do you have the figures to hand?
    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/...1861_1991.html

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Thank you Rhydderch.

    That's quite informative.
    It seems that the main points in the decline are:

    Protestants close to the newly created border decided to up sticks and move several miles "up the road" into N.I.
    This would make sense as in N.I. they would be at a distinct advantage in terms of housing, employement, etc.
    If I were them and could gain by moving to the north rather than remaining in the Republic and being on a more even keel with everyone else, then I probably would have done too.

    It's telling that most of the Protestants who didn't live near the broder remained where they were. Thus it was simply a matter of convenience.
    If life was really so unappetising under the Republic, I'm sure that distance wouldn't have been enough to prevent a mass Protestant exodus.

    The other main point seems to be that Protestants inter-married with Catholics. Due to the Church's rules, Protestants would have converted (as my own grandmother did) and raise a Catholic family.

    So Protestant breeding habits played a role as well.


    Also, I would think that the withdrawl of the British after the treaty, including tens of thousands of military, police, etc would also affect the demographics. I imagine the majority of them would also have been Protestant


    According to the website there was some incidents of intimidation of border Protestants by the IRA (* Note the IRA by this time was an outlawed organisation which had already been engaged in a Civil War with the Government forces of the Republic). I wouldn't condone that in any way, but without knowing some background details of the targets I wouldn't like to jump to conclusions. If these were just ordinary people targeted simply because of their religion, then it would be condemnable and actually against Republican creed.

    All in all though, it looks like the decline is mainly due to relocation restricted to the border area, which would provide significant financial benefits for Protestants who would gain from a system in the North which discriminated heavily in their favour, and secondly conversions to Catholicism.
    Last edited by Milesian; Thursday, February 17th, 2005 at 03:28 PM.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    As for divorce, the Church of England was created specifically to allow Henry VIII to divorce
    That was a major turning point in the English Reformation which gave it royal support and recognition. There is a lot more to the Reformation in England (and the formation of the Church of England) than Henry and his divorce.

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    I don't think it should be "given back". This implies it was wrongfully taken away and that the six counties should have belonged to the Republic/Free State from the beginning. Unionists and Protestants have always been a majority in Northern Ireland and the majority wants to maintain the union as of now. The only way I see a united Ireland happening is if there is some sort of middle-ground achieved. What I mean by this is that the six counties can't simply just be annexed into the republic. There would have to be a completely new constitution and some sort of tie in to Britain would have to be worked out. Having a constitutional monarchy that share the British monarch in personal union, while remaining completely legally independent would appease the unionists and protestants, but the die-hard republicans/nationalists would throw a fit over it even if it meant unity and was purely symbolic. Ireland would have to rejoin the commonwealth at the very least. There would also probably need to be a federal structure, rather than a unitary structure for the new government as well so that Ulster/NI could have sufficient autonomy and not be subjected to total domination by the catholic/nationalist majority. I genuinely wish that Ireland would be united, but I don't think it's likely in the near future since both of the communities on both sides of the border have so many within their ranks who are die-hard, stubborn zealots unwilling to even consider compromise.

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    Oh, and there would definitely have to be a new flag if such a united state were to come into existence.

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