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Thread: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

  1. #41
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    I genuinely believe that they will have little trouble at all.
    I certainly hope you're right.

    The Republic is a much more pluralistic and secular country now, and the Catholic Church has taken an almighty battering there.
    Loyalists will not be deprived of divorce,contraception, etc as they might have done 30- 40 odd years ago.
    Are there currently laws relating to these things in the Republic? Are they 'legal'? Still frowned upon?


    True, Republicans have killed Protestants in the past, but these have been reprisals againt Loyalists. They were killed for their politics and actions against Nationalists, not because of their religion. In fact, Irish Republicanism was created by Protestants and the early father of Irish Republicanism were Protestants. Those men are still celebrated as heros today by Republicans.
    I've always gotten the impression that this is about much more than just religion. I think that religion often just plays the role of a rallying-cry or an organizing force in these matters, while the real roots of the conflict lie elsewhere. As another example, how much of the Palestinian/Jewish conflict is really due to animosity over religion, and how much of it is due to simple interethnic strife and fighting over the land?

    In Dublin not so long ago, Protestants even held an Orange March. So I think Dublin is sincere about safegurading their culture and customs.
    In saying that, they might not be so accomodating in letting provocative and sectarian marches go right through Nationalist areas and housing estates, but as long as they are allocated somewhere they can do this away from people whom it will offend and incite, then I don't consider this unreasonable at all.
    Of course, then they'll claim they're being marginalized and kept out of the public eye. This sort of thing often becomes a vicious circle.


    Good question.
    Thanks. You've given some good answers thus far.

    I believe the Unionists will likely split into three groups in the event of Re-Unification

    1) Those who will adapt and become Irish Citizens like their co-religionists who have been living in the Republic for the last 80-odd years and will go on as before

    2) A minority who will feel their desire to remain British too strong, and will relocate to the UK (and I feel Britain has a responsibility to them to accomodate them in that case, for if they can accomodate thousands of non-British immigrants then they can surely accomodate their Unionist subjects)

    3) Loyalist hardliners who will begin a campaign of guerrila warfare against the Irish Republic and pretty much carry on as they (Loyalist paramilitaries) are doing just now (most are not on ceasefire and none of them have decomissioned even a single bullet)
    Sounds like a likely outcome. As I said before, I'd be happy to see any of them who want to emigrate come to the States! We could use the help of such a feisty bunch.

    I would hope this last group would be a very small minority and last only a small amount of time. Even better, they don't materialise at all. One can hope.
    Indeed. I certainly understand how easily bad blood can build up between two peoples (I even know I'm guilty of it, as I'm sometimes known to take a jab at a Yankee or two), but it still pains me to think that such fratricidal conflicts are going on when bigger struggles are beginning to play themselves out on the world stage.

    In any event, it would be a better situation than a return to complete civil war as happened in the past
    I'll keep my fingers crossed for all of you, Republican and Loyalist alike.

  2. #42
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    ...when Northern Ireland is inevitable returned to the rest of the country...
    Do you mean when Ireland becomes part of the British Commonwealth, under the British crown? That way, Ireland would have no division, but would be a whole country, like Scotland or England

  3. #43
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Do you mean when Ireland becomes part of the British Commonwealth, under the British crown? That way, Ireland would have no division, but would be a whole country, like Scotland or England

    You mean going back to before the 1920's and starting from scratch again?
    Isn't one Anglo-Irish War enough?

    I think Oscar Wilde had a better idea. Ireland should rule Britain.

  4. #44
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    You mean going back to before the 1920's and starting from scratch again?
    Isn't one Anglo-Irish War enough?
    What I meant was perhaps you mean the Irish would one day be willing to rejoin the Commonwealth under the monarchy; no war involved.

    But more seriously, why do the Irish want to be separate from Britain? The reason I ask this question is not because I'm puzzled about why they (you) want to be separate (I know of many possible reasons), I'm just wondering what your point of view is.
    I think Oscar Wilde had a better idea. Ireland should rule Britain.
    Was'nt Oscar Wilde himself "Anglo-Irish"?

    Britain already has a well established monarchy, and is a larger, stronger nation (or nations); it would be more practical that the British monarchy rule Ireland

    The thing is, it's not (or need'nt be) a matter of England ruling over Ireland or any other country in the Commonwealth. The fact being that the British monarchy rules (or at least is intended to!) those countries and it also rules England. A common idea in Australia (especially perpetuated by anti-Royalists) is that the English rule us, and therefore we should "grow up" and become a republic; but that idea is, of course, erroneous.

    Anyway, it was the Scottish monarchy which originally United the Kingdom, and for practical reasons, it was moved to the larger and more centrally located city of London.

  5. #45
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    But more seriously, why do the Irish want to be separate from Britain? The reason I ask this question is not because I'm puzzled about why they (you) want to be separate (I know of many possible reasons), I'm just wondering what your point of view is.
    Well, you must know that Ireland suffered quite badly under occupation and this still happens now in Northern Ireland.

    Britain already has a well established monarchy, and is a larger, stronger nation (or nations); it would be more practical that the British monarchy rule Ireland.
    I think one problem with this idea is the state of the British monarchy.

    Anyway, it was the Scottish monarchy which originally United the Kingdom, and for practical reasons, it was moved to the larger and more centrally located city of London.
    Its true that Traditional monarchies werent nation states but family states, and it was better that way. But the United Kingdom and British Empire took a nasty turn. Dont forget the Act of Union was after the Glorious Revolution happened.

  6. #46
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Well, you must know that Ireland suffered quite badly under occupation and this still happens now in Northern Ireland.
    The suffering was not necessarily because of occupation although it was in some cases (of course); but it is often grossly exaggerated.

    Religious intolerance, for instance, caused suffering not only in Ireland but also in Britain (especially Scotland).

    I think it's also quite conceivable that the problems in Northern Ireland today would be largely eliminated if they united with the Republic but under the British crown.
    Much of the tension is probably caused by the Unionist concern that they might come under the domination of the Republic etc.

    I think one problem with this idea is the state of the British monarchy.
    That's true, and they seem determined to self-destruct. I suppose I'm thinking more in ideal terms.
    I wonder whether the Irish want to be separate simply because it's the British monarchy.

    Its true that Traditional monarchies werent nation states but family states, and it was better that way. But the United Kingdom and British Empire took a nasty turn. Dont forget the Act of Union was after the Glorious Revolution happened.
    Which bit was the nasty turn?

  7. #47
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Religious intolerance, for instance, caused suffering not only in Ireland but also in Britain (especially Scotland).
    Thats true but things like Bloody Sunday still go on in Northern Ireland, but not in Scotland.

    Which bit was the nasty turn?
    The government of the British Empire by shopkeeper souls, was a decline away from Traditional monarchy and the British Empire was an Empire in name only, created and managed to suit the financial interests of a few rich opressors and a monarchy that was more concerned with them than with Germanic, aristocratic values.

    The decline started with the English Revolution which had mostly failed, it got much worse with the Glorious Revolution and then with Disraeli the values of the British Empire hit rock bottom.

  8. #48
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Thats true but things like Bloody Sunday still go on in Northern Ireland, but not in Scotland.
    But that has little to do with religious intolerance or suffering under occupation; there is a conflict there and evil deeds are perpetrated by both sides. I don't think it can really be compared with the Government-instigated tortures and executions for not conforming to the established Episcopalian religion.
    I also doubt that separation from Britain would put an end to the conflict.

    The government of the British Empire by shopkeeper souls, was a decline away from Traditional monarchy and the British Empire was an Empire in name only, created and managed to suit the financial interests of a few rich opressors and a monarchy that was more concerned with them than with Germanic, aristocratic values.
    That may be so in many cases, but I can't see that it applies to the whole of the British Empire.

    The decline started with the English Revolution which had mostly failed, it got much worse with the Glorious Revolution
    Cromwell's rule was quite successful over all, and religious persecution ended.
    It's regrettable that his eldest son Richard took over on his father's death; the evidence indicates that his younger son was more like Oliver, and that he intended that son to take over, rather than Richard; some had proposed that Cromwell should become king (and presumably his succeeding son), and British history could have been a lot better for that, also the terrible reign of Charles II would have been avoided.

    The Glorious Revolution may not have been a rosy time, but it was certainly a better prospect than a reign of James II, which probably would have ushered in yet another period of religious persecution.

  9. #49
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    That may be so in many cases, but I can't see that it applies to the whole of the British Empire.
    Well it was something that got worse over time.

    Cromwell's rule was quite successful over all, and religious persecution ended.
    If it wasnt for the Glorious Revolution, then Cromwell would be seen to have failed in establishing his changes to England. After Cromwell, the English had enough of Puritanism and were returning to more Traditional values.

    The Glorious Revolution may not have been a rosy time, but it was certainly a better prospect than a reign of James II, which probably would have ushered in yet another period of religious persecution.
    I was referring to the long term effects caused by the Glorious Revolution and its shopkeeper values imported from the financial centres of the Dutch.

  10. #50
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    If it wasnt for the Glorious Revolution, then Cromwell would be seen to have failed in establishing his changes to England.
    Well yes, because his changes would not have been upheld by James II, but reversed; but his rule itself was, in my opinion, successful and beneficial.
    After Cromwell, the English had enough of Puritanism and were returning to more Traditional values.
    What would those traditional values be, and in what respect would they be preferable to Puritanism?

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