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Thread: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

  1. #31
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    Hmm, I dunno.
    There are some points in the pre-historic timeline I'd disagree with.
    It has the Gaels arriving circa 100BC, over a thousand years after the Milesians, yet the Milesian's were the the bringers of Gaelic culture to Ireland.

    Also it has Ireland inhabited by tribes known as Scotti at one point.
    The Scotti weren't a seperate people or tribes, they were just Irish who had taken to the seas to plunder nearby lands so they are still the same people that had been living their previously.

    Apart from that.....

    It is difficult as the Celts did not leave written records, so much of the early history of Ireland is based on specualtion and conjecture.

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    so i was wrong to presume he was right then?


  3. #33
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    In addition, these "planters" were Protestants (loyal to the English Protestant monarch), and they discriminated against the native Catholic Irish.
    The most succesful plantation took place in Ulster, which is the reason why there are a million Protestant people in Nothern Ireland today who wish to be British instead of Irish - these are the descendants of the Planters.
    Well, probably the majority are; but it only takes a look at their surnames to know that a large proportion are of native Irish descent. Also, many Irish surnames were Anglicised (as I'm sure you know), so having an apparently English surname does'nt guarantee that someone (even if he's Protestant) is of English descent.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    I have a proposal that may indeed please you Irish nationalists, though I doubt there'll be many takers until you lot come to power.

    I'd like to extend an open invitation to all the English and Scots of Northern Ireland to migrate here to America. We could use a fresh infusion of the blood that built this nation.
    Last edited by Appalachian; Wednesday, January 5th, 2005 at 07:44 PM.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Well, probably the majority are; but it only takes a look at their surnames to know that a large proportion are of native Irish descent. Also, many Irish surnames were Anglicised (as I'm sure you know), so having an apparently English surname does'nt guarantee that someone (even if he's Protestant) is of English descent.
    Indeed, almost 50% of Northern Ireland's population are native Irish of the Nationalist community with their surnames being Gaelic Irish or Anglified Gaelic. The majority of Unionist surnames are Scottish or English in origin

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAppalachian
    I have a proposal that may indeed please you Irish nationalists, though I doubt there'll be many takers until you lot come to power.

    I'd like to extend an open invitation to all the English and Scots of Northern Ireland to migrate here to America. We could use a fresh infusion of the blood that built this nation.

    It's a nice idea, although the Unionists in NI maintain that they want to be British citizens at all costs, so I'm not sure how they would greet the offer.
    Of course, when Northern Ireland is inevitable returned to the rest of the country, we will then see just how truthful that claim is.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    I admire your confidence.

  8. #38
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAppalachian
    I admire your confidence.
    Thanks

    Although to be fair, the signs do point that way.
    Northern IReland was originally created with it's borders rigged due to Unionist pressure.

    If they had made the borders around the historic Nine Counties of Ulster, then the Unionist majority would have been very tenous.
    So instead, they gave 1/3 of Ulster back to the Republic and drew the border around the Six North-Eastern Counties of Ulster to create Northen Ireland. These six counties were more densely populated with Unionists and they believed this would give them a permanent in-built artifical majority, effectively allowing them to rule that part of Ireland for the forseeable future.

    However, things haven't turned out that way.
    Now, three of the six counties of NI have Nationalist majority populations, and in all the overall population of NI isn't far off a 50/50 situation.

    In fact the last census of the province was rushed through by Unionist politicians for fear that a delay would show an overall Nationalist majority, thereby rubbishing any pretense that maintaining British rule there was based on the democratic voice of the people there.

    I guess this might well be why the Powersharing at Stormont has been revived after all these years, why London has given Dublin a greater say in how things are run, and why the IRA have now decided to call off hostilities.
    It might well be that everyone knows that re-unification is inevitable (although not everyone may accept it), and thus the way for intigrating North-East Ulster with the rest of Ulster and Ireland is being gradually eased in.


    In reality, the Unionists will not have any real problems becoming Irish citizens. Their economic, poltical and religious rights are guranteed by the constitution of the Irish Republic which is far more than the Nationalists have had under British rule.

    However, for many hardline Loyalists I think it's a matter of principle.
    They have been used to seeing themselves as superior and having the Nationalists live as second class citizens for longer than anyone can remember, automatically being in political and economic control. The idea of even sharing power with almost half of their neighbours (whom some have been raised to hate with a pathological hatred), far less joining them in the Irish Republic would be anathema to many of them.
    Last edited by Milesian; Wednesday, January 12th, 2005 at 05:44 PM.

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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    If they had made the borders around the historic Nine Counties of Ulster, then the Unionist majority would have been very tenous.
    So instead, they gave 1/3 of Ulster back to the Republic and drew the border around the Six North-Eastern Counties of Ulster to create Northen Ireland. These six counties were more densely populated with Unionists and they believed this would give them a permanent in-built artifical majority, effectively allowing them to rule that part of Ireland for the forseeable future.
    Nothing like some good ol' fashioned gerrymandering! We know all about it here, too, though in our case it's primarily to give power to Blacks in the South.

    I guess this might well be why the Powersharing at Stormont has been revived after all these years, why London has given Dublin a greater say in how things are run, and why the IRA have now decided to call off hostilities. It might well be that everyone knows that re-unification is inevitable (although not everyone may accept it), and thus the way for intigrating North-EAst Ulster with the rest of Ulster and Ireland is being gradually eased in.
    Yeah, I've been following this a bit, though I must confess that my knowledge on the subject is limited. My burning questions are these:

    1.) In your honest opinion, how do you think the Protestants, Loyalists, et al will be treated in the event of reunification?

    2.) Do you anticipate much of a fight from die-hard Unionists in the event that the British government announces a hand-over, or do you think the government will be able to keep a lid on hostilities?

  10. #40
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    Post Re: Northern Ireland & The U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAppalachian


    Yeah, I've been following this a bit, though I must confess that my knowledge on the subject is limited. My burning questions are these:

    1.) In your honest opinion, how do you think the Protestants, Loyalists, et al will be treated in the event of reunification?
    I genuinely believe that they will have little trouble at all.
    The Republic is a much more pluralistic and secular country now, and the Catholic Church has taken an almighty battering there.
    Loyalists will not be deprived of divorce,contraception, etc as they might have done 30- 40 odd years ago.

    Also, the Republic's constitution gurantees their rights.
    Even Republicans (including the IRA) recognise these rights, as it was part of the Proclamation of the Irish Republic that Pearse read out from the GPO at the Easter Rebellion of 1916, and all Republicans venerate it as creed.

    True, Republicans have killed Protestants in the past, but these have been reprisals againt Loyalists. They were killed for their politics and actions against Nationalists, not because of their religion. In fact, Irish Republicanism was created by Protestants and the early father of Irish Republicanism were Protestants. Those men are still celebrated as heros today by Republicans.

    In Dublin not so long ago, Protestants even held an Orange March. So I think Dublin is sincere about safegurading their culture and customs.
    In saying that, they might not be so accomodating in letting provocative and sectarian marches go right through Nationalist areas and housing estates, but as long as they are allocated somewhere they can do this away from people whom it will offend and incite, then I don't consider this unreasonable at all

    2.) Do you anticipate much of a fight from die-hard Unionists in the event that the British government announces a hand-over, or do you think the government will be able to keep a lid on hostilities?
    Good question.

    I believe the Unionists will likely split into three groups in the event of Re-Unification

    1) Those who will adapt and become Irish Citizens like their co-religionists who have been living in the Republic for the last 80-odd years and will go on as before

    2) A minority who will feel their desire to remain British too strong, and will relocate to the UK (and I feel Britain has a responsibility to them to accomodate them in that case, for if they can accomodate thousands of non-British immigrants then they can surely accomodate their Unionist subjects)

    3) Loyalist hardliners who will begin a campaign of guerrila warfare against the Irish Republic and pretty much carry on as they (Loyalist paramilitaries) are doing just now (most are not on ceasefire and none of them have decomissioned even a single bullet)

    I would hope this last group would be a very small minority and last only a small amount of time. Even better, they don't materialise at all. One can hope.

    In any event, it would be a better situation than a return to complete civil war as happened in the past

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