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Thread: The Sinoid Spectrum in East Asia

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    The Sinoid Spectrum in East Asia

    This is mostly a summary of various other threads about that topic from Dodona:

    The Sinid spectrum is very important for the Mongolid race, its the most numerous and culturally most evolved group, includes the great nations of China, Korea and Japan. The Sinoid spectrum also includes the Palaemongolid reduced-infantilised, and partly with Weddoid-Negritid types mixed groups of the South, which became their Mongolid component from the Sinoids in various waves.

    As I said the main facts are:
    A) There are two basic Mongolid types of the North, SINID AND TUNGID.
    B) In Sinids is a gradient from North to South which was distorted by the Han Chinese and other movements, but the real indigenous populations still show a clear pattern (aka Manchu - North vs Yao - South).

    Pictures from anthropological books:
    As for the basic difference between Tungids and Sinids, just look at this thread:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=36081

    Especially this examples which are from a book from the 1996:
    http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=knussmanns4342mg.jpg

    The morphological differences between the two types of the North (Tungid and Sinid) are just obvious. The typical low forehead, broad-flat-fat face with massive cheekbones of Tungids is just typical, as are the higher, finer, narrower and more differentiated faces of the Sinid type:
    http://img184.echo.cx/my.php?image=knussmanns4342mg.jpg

    The Tibetan is Mittelsinid, a Nordsinid would be even more extreme like you can see on this picture:
    http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=2044ce.jpg

    Some generalised metrical differences from the (Northern) Sinid to the Palaemongolid (Southern) areas:
    .) higher body height.
    .) higher skelic index (shorter legs).
    .) with some regional exceptions lower LBI
    .) lower HLI
    .) higher absolute middle face height
    .) lower nasal index on the skull
    .) lighter pigmentation

    Map:
    http://img200.echo.cx/my.php?image=rassenasiens8mq.jpg
    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...90&postcount=3

    For Eastern Chinese (not the West) coastline its like that: Northernmost - Tungids: broad face, high LBI, low HLI, strong subcutaneous fat, extreme Mongolid features (epicanthus, high cheekbones etc.), medium-tall, etc.
    North - Nordsinids: narrow face+noses, low LBI, high HLI, medium (for Mongolids) subcutaneous fat, Mongolid features, tall, light pigmented etc.
    Central - Mittelsinids: two variants, one rather broad faced, other medium-narrow faced, higher LBI, but regional differences, high HLI, medium fat, Mongolid features, medium-tall, medium pigmented for the region etc.
    Southern - Suedsinids: broader faces, noses+higher LBI on average, regional differences, very high HLI, lower fat, Mongolid features weaker, medium-short, stronger pigmented, longer legs etc.

    Furthermore Mittelsinid is really not the best term, but still the most useful one, for variants in question. Because the coastal group which is what you described (broad faced-headed etc.) is just one element. Whereas Nordsinid is clear and Suedsinids again, Mittelsinid is really a term for grouping all the groups in between together, including the main variant, mainly on the Central Chinese coastal region, but expanding to the South.
    The Tibetids, which some, most include into the Mittelsinid spectrum, is a different subtype obviously, but certain features they have in common.

    The more dry Northern millet farmer and nomadic regions below the Tungid centres, the central Hwangho was and mostly is a Nordsinid centre. Mittelsinids are more common in the rice farmer areas of the great rivers. The Nordsinids were the "original Chinese" and expanded Southwards, assimilating first the Mittelsinid rice farmers and then the Suedsinid farmers and H-G groups. They pressed them partly Southwards, empires in the South, Manchuria was slowly made (Nord-) Sinid by race too.
    Most typical populations Manchu, Lolo (Yi - original group-upper class) for Nordsinid, Miao Mittelsinid, Yao Suedsinid.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, September 27th, 2005 at 03:34 PM.
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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Nordsinids show clear Mongolid features (unlike the partly similar looking Dayakid-Palaemongolids of some areas which have quite often high bridged noses etc. too).

    Typical is a higher FI and NI (long-narrow face and nose compared to other Mongolid core types), higher body height on average, more leptomorphic build, mesocephalic to dolichocephalic mostly, the seldom brachycephalics have a turriform/dinariomorphic (narrow-short-high) head form.

    Typical Nordsinid-Tungid North Korean:


    Pred. Nordsinid Koreans:


    The Coshu or Jakunin-type (Lundman)/Cosiu (Saller) of Japan and Korea: More common in the upper class, basically a mixture out of Nordsinid with progressive Palaemongolid and Ainuid admixture and social selection involved. Refined features, narrower face and nose, which is more often aquiline/convex nose, but overall still Mongolid appearance:


    Jakunin type, Shichinosuke Nakamura:


    More Nordsinid-Jakunin Japanese actress Koyuki:


    Pred. Nordsinid-Jakunin Seizo Fukumoto:



    Pred. Nordsinid Manchu (especially left girl):


    Manchu man of Nordsinid type:


    Manchu woman of Nordsinid type:




    Pred. Nordsinid Lolo (Yi):




    Lolo (Yi) man with baby, Nordsinid type:


    Pred. Nordsinid Han Chinese actress Zhang Ziyi:


    Pred. Nordsinid Chinese man from London:


    Pred. Nordsinid Chinese man from Beijing:


    More Chinese Nordsinids from Beijing:



    Mittelsinid Tibetans (Tibetid type) which is quite close to Nordsinids:




    Pred. Mittelsinid Miao:

    The variant which is close to Tibetids from a Miao group:

    More typical Mittelsinid Miao:


    Pred. Suedsinid Yao, on the border to Palaemongolid variants:






    Compared with the Southern Palaemongolid-Weddoid belt, even pure forms of Pre-Mongoloid Eastweddids in Burmese-Combodian areas:
    http://dodona.proboards35.com/index....8992922&page=6

    Images:
    http://www.swan.ac.uk/visualanthropo...ithographs.htm

    Even there the Sinid influence is in the Singpho Chief clearly visible (left man):


    About the Singpho/Kachins:
    http://www.geocities.com/zawaung_2000/kachin3.htm
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, September 27th, 2005 at 06:22 PM.
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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    This explains the often 'stubby' legs I see among many Koreans and Japanese.

    How is the skelic index measured?

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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Cletus
    This explains the often 'stubby' legs I see among many Koreans and Japanese.
    How is the skelic index measured?
    Lower limb height x 100/sitting height = skelic index.

    The easiest way to measure it without help and instruments is, sitting on something in a normal position on a wall and measuring from where you are sitting to the head. Then body height - this sitting height = limb height. Not very precise but it gives an impression. Higher skelic index means shorter legs.
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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia


    Some generalised metrical differences from the (Northern) Sinid to the Palaemongolid (Southern) areas:
    .) higher body height.
    .) higher skelic index (shorter legs).
    .) with some regional exceptions lower LBI
    .) lower HLI
    .) higher absolute middle face height
    .) lower nasal index on the skull
    .) lighter pigmentation
    even though that is generally true for most of China, there are pockets where heights are much higher than the usual regional norm. For example, from what I've seen and read, it is actually not uncommon for native Shanghainese to be above 180 cm (or 6 feet) tall. Maybe perhaps it is due to economic reasons, as Shanghai is the most developed area in China, and the native Shanghaiers (i say native, because there is a large number of migrant workers from the rural western provinces in Shanghai) have better nutrition.

    But one does not observe this phonemon in Hong Kong, since Hong Kong cantonese still average around 170 cm (5'6.5").

    Also i don't think Northernors (those from Beijing and further up north) are "that" much taller than people from rest of China (cantonese excluded, of course), which leads me to think that those living in central and northern (north of the Yangtze) China are basically from the same genetic stock, or at least, very similar. I mean a Chinese from Shanghai or one from Beijing are almost indistinguishable from one anther (from a racial, standpoint, of course), except the native Shanghaier might have less coarse, and more smooth features.


    In a nation as small as Korea, there is still a great amount of racial diversity. I have seen many Koreans who have "caucasoid" features, (well pronounced forehead, evidence of nasal bridge, very progressive) and those who look very tungid (high sloping forehead, brachycephalic, etc)

    I have a question, Agrippa, from where did the Yakonid subrace develop?
    Last edited by Schutzstaffelor; Wednesday, September 28th, 2005 at 05:30 AM.

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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Schutzstaffelor
    except the native Shanghaier might have less coarse, and more smooth features.
    Whats typical if going from North to South. But you are absolutely right, but the main reason is, that the most important element in formation of the Han Chinese, at least culturally and politically, was in the crucial times Nordsinid, Nordsinid groups, not just the Han (like the Lolo pictured above) moved in waves South and in local adaptation and mixture changed their specialisation partly, but it depends, in some more Southern regions you still find quite Nordsinid small populations, whereas there are some Northern regions which are more Tungid or have strong influences of Southern immigration.

    In a nation as small as Korea, there is still a great amount of racial diversity. I have seen many Koreans who have "caucasoid" features, (well pronounced forehead, evidence of nasal bridge, very progressive) and those who look very tungid (high sloping forehead, brachycephalic, etc)
    Yes, in fact if you combine a Nordsinid morphology with less pronounced Mongoloid features and a more Europiform nose and you get something quite Europoid looking. The Nordsinid type is generally quite progressive, but still foreign for Europeans, Mongolid.


    I have a question, Agrippa, from where did the Yakonid subrace develop?
    I described it above, its basically what I said about the Jakunin/Choshiu type. I'd say the basic characteristics came already in NE-China and Korea up, in the area which is between Manchu-Tungus-Korean speakers and the Sino-Tibetans, with another influx of progressive Palaemongolids and Ainuids, especially in the characteristic Japanese variant.
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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Yes, in fact if you combine a Nordsinid morphology with less pronounced Mongoloid features and a more Europiform nose and you get something quite Europoid looking. The Nordsinid type is generally quite progressive, but still foreign for Europeans, Mongolid.

    Would you attribute mongoloid traits to extreme cold adaptation?
    Perhaps now that the weather is more temperate they will evolve in a more Europid direction. As I have read that mongloids basically evolved during the last Ice Age.

    The funny thing is Europeans also where exposed to an Ice Age but show far less extreme cold adapation. Perhaps it was because Europeans were less isolated?

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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Would you attribute mongoloid traits to extreme cold adaptation?
    Perhaps now that the weather is more temperate they will evolve in a more Europid direction. As I have read that mongloids basically evolved during the last Ice Age.
    The funny thing is Europeans also where exposed to an Ice Age but show far less extreme cold adapation. Perhaps it was because Europeans were less isolated?
    By the last ice age, sapiens was primarily adapting through culture, not biology. So why would the later Mongoloids (modern Asias as opposed to New World Mongoloids) have changed so radically, so late in time and apparently changing biologically rather than culturally?

    My opinion is that the later Mongoloids absorbed some cold adapted pre-sapiens genes when isolated during the last glacial maximum. For some reason these genes and the features they brought had a strong selective value. Maybe this was cold adaptation. For whatever reason, after the last glacial maximum, the later Mongoloids expanded and replaced and absorbed the earlier Mongoloids in Asia.

    The Sinid-Tungid thing sounds good and I am sure corresponds to a generalized reality. But the Chinese, for instance, recognize a myriad of local races on the same level as we recognize Meds., Alpines and Nordics. Once I became exposed to various types of Mongoloids, I was able to pick out Koreans, Chinese, Japanese--even Cantonese, and North and South Vietnamese. Singapore, for instance, is not populated by Cantonese and you see this in those people.

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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Would you attribute mongoloid traits to extreme cold adaptation?
    Yes, the basic Mongolid traits. But the Sinoid type is already a reselection with "Southern" admixture, which was assimilated, and a new, even more progressive type was the result which was a less extreme cold type if compared with Arctic Mongolids (Tungid mainly).

    Perhaps now that the weather is more temperate they will evolve in a more Europid direction. As I have read that mongloids basically evolved during the last Ice Age.
    If there would be a selection like in warm time Europe yes, as a tendency you can see that in some Mongolid groups, but selection isnt at work any more and certain features though originally developed in the extreme cold are not as disadvantageous to be selected out under normal conditions without high selective pressure for a warmer region. In the South more primitive groups of Weddoids attributed to the Mongolid Southward expansion which lead to more tropical adapted, less evolved variants partly, partly on almost the same level like some reduced Mittelsinids but just better tropical adapted.

    The funny thing is Europeans also where exposed to an Ice Age but show far less extreme cold adapation. Perhaps it was because Europeans were less isolated?
    Yes, they were less isolated, I would assume that adapted stronger culturally as Solar said, but that they could do so! It was much harder for Mongolids, they couldnt just move away and the connection to other groups was lost. They were most likely for a certain time, the hardest time, in rather small pockets with limited ressources and connections to other groups.

    European Late Upper Palaeolithics adapted to the climate physically too, the Cromagnoid types are mainly that, as I said, typical Nordids expanded mainly after the LGM, the Cromagnoids had more muscles, subcutaneous fat and somewhat shorter extremities on average during the LGM, even a proportional change from pre-LGM to LGM is visible, conditions were also in Europe, though it was not that isolated, very hard. The basic difference seems to be that there were still regions in which humans could live quite well, and the fight for them began, so the fight for the good areas was partly more important in Europe than the adaptation to just the ecological environment! Obviously with the exception of certain North Eastern Cromagnoid groups, the ancestors of the boreal types of our time.

    Not to forget, European get constant influences from warmer areas too, they were never fully isolated. Like progressive leptomorphic Europids show Southern influence, the same is true for Sinoids, the typical cold types are for Europids extreme Cromagnoids and Lappoids, for Mongolids Tungids, Sibirids. The heavy body with more muscles is typical. Many people think strong muscles were that important in the fight for survival, but especially in the more evolved cultural groups and group selection, thats not necessarily true, I described ones how fights and daily life took place. The stronger body build and more muscles were partly advantageous generally, but the main reason why so much energy was invested was the cold. More muscles and fat produce more heat and keep it better. Thats the main reason why during the LGM leptomorphic Europids were in certain regions rather exceptionary. The later expansion of this variants was not just caused by migration but because the element was selected, similar to Alpinisation in the sedentary-frugal peasant societies.
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    Post Re: The Sinoid spectrum in East Asia

    Agrippa, can you also explain the lack of body hair that characterized most mongoloids? for a species that was well adapted to cold climes, this feature seems almost counterintuitive.

    And why is that the near easterners (who generally live in the hottest regions) have the most body hair?

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