View Poll Results: Are you more nationalist or pan-European?

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  • I am more of a nationalist.

    2 40.00%
  • I am more of a pan-European.

    1 20.00%
  • I am both nationalist and pan-European. (I don't think one necessarily contradicts the other)

    1 20.00%
  • I am neither.

    0 0%
  • Other. (please specify)

    1 20.00%
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Thread: Are You More Nationalist or Pan-European?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Japetos's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    Pan-Euro

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    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    Pan european in the truest sense.

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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    I am a nationalist and will be a nationalist until I die. Sovereignty is all. Westphalian or nothing. The right to make war must be absolute, but so must the right to cooperate, which is what the nations of Europe need to do without the creation of a customs union. The entrance into a customs union means the renunciation of sovereignty. The European Union must be taken apart one brick at a time.


  4. #14
    Senior Member Deling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    The nation-state in Europe died over hundred years ago. I sure am Folkish, but I don't care about national identity and culture: Swedish culture today isn't what it was 20 years ago. You can't preserve identities, because every generation shapes it's own. Reactionary statism isn't my kind of thing...

    I'm the worst possible Swede, but a Good European, I would betray my country without doubt if it was for a good cause. Those who still believe in statism of the nation and culture was born three or so generations too late. Latin/Slav/Germanic division and the romanticist nation-state hegelianism is 19th Century dinosaurs: strange that such expired date ideologies still cling to some individuals' minds.

  5. #15
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deling
    The nation-state in Europe died over hundred years ago. I sure am Folkish, but I don't care about national identity and culture: Swedish culture today isn't what it was 20 years ago. You can't preserve identities, because every generation shapes it's own. Reactionary statism isn't my kind of thing...
    I'm the worst possible Swede, but a Good European, I would betray my country without doubt if it was for a good cause. Those who still believe in statism of the nation and culture was born three or so generations too late. Latin/Slav/Germanic division and the romanticist nation-state hegelianism is 19th Century dinosaurs: strange that such expired date ideologies still cling to some individuals' minds.
    Would you care to explain why European is a more valid and more valuable identity than Swedish and Germanic?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Š■eling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    The nation-state in Europe died over hundred years ago. I sure am Folkish, but I don't care about national identity and culture: Swedish culture today isn't what it was 20 years ago. You can't preserve identities, because every generation shapes it's own. Reactionary statism isn't my kind of thing...
    This statement makes no sense. You say your folkish, but you don't care about national identity. How do you define these terms? Also how would you explain the fact that an English identity goes back to at least AD737, and probably much earlier? I think that is a fairly well preserved identity.

    How do you work out the nation- states died over a hundred years ago? Last time I looked at the UN and EU memberships there were quite a few nation-states, although not necessarily nations.

    I'm the worst possible Swede, but a Good European, I would betray my country without doubt if it was for a good cause. Those who still believe in statism of the nation and culture was born three or so generations too late. Latin/Slav/Germanic division and the romanticist nation-state hegelianism is 19th Century dinosaurs: strange that such expired date ideologies still cling to some individuals' minds.
    Here again you seem to have a some what distorted grasp. You do realise that nation-state is not necessarily analogous to national identity? The United Kingdom is a nation-state, but even the most ardent Unionist would not call it a nation.

    As Siegfried has said how do you define European as a valid identity, but Swedish as not?

    A few working definitions for when you consider your answer:

    Nation-State: A state legally recognised by other nation-states as having clearly defined borders, and usually a central government.

    Ethnicity/Nation: A community of people with a number of shared characteristics. Examples are: race, language, religion, history, homeland, ancestral homeland, foundation myth.

    Culture: A tricky one. But the best definition is the artistic and material cultural output of a given nation and/or civilisation.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

    http://www.odinic-rite.org/index2.html
    http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/

  7. #17
    Senior Member Deling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    "Nation-State: A state legally recognised by other nation-states as having clearly defined borders, and usually a central government.

    Ethnicity/Nation: A community of people with a number of shared characteristics. Examples are: race, language, religion, history, homeland, ancestral homeland, foundation myth.

    Culture: A tricky one. But the best definition is the artistic and material cultural output of a given nation and/or civilisation."


    The terms nation and nation-state I use interchangably. Culture is a generation issue: it's projection of the past on it's own unique present Spirit of the Age. Ethnicity and Race I use interchangably, and it isn't nearly as relative as Culture. In Sweden we say "folk", and a folk is a folk. The collective political unit is the nation.

    "This statement makes no sense. You say your folkish, but you don't care about national identity. How do you define these terms? Also how would you explain the fact that an English identity goes back to at least AD737, and probably much earlier? I think that is a fairly well preserved identity.

    How do you work out the nation- states died over a hundred years ago? Last time I looked at the UN and EU memberships there were quite a few nation-states, although not necessarily nations."


    The nation-state in Europe has been dead for long. The First "world war" was it's peak, beyond that its corpse has been carried by Welfare and Democracy. Strangely, I read a text by Lenin (written 1916) earlier today, polemic against some marxist named Kievskij: there he wrote that Western nation-states are of the past, Eastern of the contemporary age (and the Russian revolution sure proved that), and the Colonial world's nations of the future. How true...
    What is the essence of 20th Century nations? Welfare and Democracy. Where is it's cultural achievements? People still cling to Nietzsche, Marx and Schopenhauer: no penetrating philosophy has existed for a century! Where's the national spirit; except in welfare offices and ballot boxes? Nowhere. The western nation-states are just empty shells, and have been so for a hundred years. No wonder pan-Europeanism has been on the agenda since the 1920'ties (even in Hitler-Germany). Don't you understand why "welfare democracy" has broken through in Western Europe? It's what slow down the decaying of the corpse. It's essence is purely political and economical, nothing else. A f***ing wonder that they still exist: probably it's because of the political nature of the rulers, and the norms (the democracy) of the society. Well, that's in the dustbin of history too soon.

    "Here again you seem to have a some what distorted grasp. You do realise that nation-state is not necessarily analogous to national identity? The United Kingdom is a nation-state, but even the most ardent Unionist would not call it a nation."

    To me the analogue is pretty clear. If the political nation isn't what Sweden is, then what do Swedes identify with? Why then identify as Swedes? Every Swede know what "Sverige" is: Democracy, welfare, neutrality and internationalism. These are national identities, and very closely connected to the political nation: just as it is. Then there's traditions and customs, but that's a totally different thing.

    "As Siegfried has said how do you define European as a valid identity, but Swedish as not?"

    I was just paraphrasing Nietzsche: "I may not be a Good German, but a Good European".

    SIEGFRIED: "Would you care to explain why European is a more valid and more valuable identity than Swedish and Germanic?"

    I don't think it's more "valid", I can't decide what people think and are raised to feel connected too. But it's a simple fact that a European consciousness is born and nurtured nowadays, and have been for a few years, and the next generations will evolve that consciousness even further: perhaps even taking the European Idea for granted. THAT makes it more valid than at least Germanic, but of course "Swede" won't go away: but honestly I believe even future Swedes will identify less and less with the national identity primarily.

  8. #18
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    Post AW: Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deling
    If the political nation isn't what Sweden is, then what do Swedes identify with? Why then identify as Swedes? Every Swede know what "Sverige" is: Democracy, welfare, neutrality and internationalism. These are national identities, and very closely connected to the political nation: just as it is. Then there's traditions and customs, but that's a totally different thing.
    Here and elsewhere you seem to be saying that it takes a political decision and a constitution to make a nation, not just in the political sense but in the v÷lkisch sense as well.

    To me it is apparent that nationalities are created not by a stroke of the pen but by centuries of shared blood, history and culture - and that they existed long before the nation-state came into being.

    Can you elaborate on your ideas? I'm genuinely curious.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Deling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    "Here and elsewhere you seem to be saying that it takes a political decision and a constitution to make a nation, not just in the political sense but in the v÷lkisch sense as well.

    To me it is apparent that nationalities are created not by a stroke of the pen but by centuries of shared blood, history and culture - and that they existed long before the nation-state came into being.

    Can you elaborate on your ideas? I'm genuinely curious."


    Sure I can. To me there are two kind of European entities: 1) folk, which is a consiousness and, to a degree, "biological": shared Gene Pool. 2) nation, the political formation of ONE WHOLE Gene Pool or constitutioned parts of different Gene Pools.

    Sometimes the nation shapes the folk, sometimes it's the other way around. I believe though, just as F.P Yockey, that generally Culture creates Nations, not the other way around...thus 1 must lead to 2, and 2 lead back to 1 eventually.

    So, to reach a possible conclusion: a nation is created by "centuries of shared blood". Is the blood shared because it is a nation (what I defined earlier), or because the folk naturally is the nation? The racial history of Europe is the history of assimilation and dynastical loyalties, not to mention theological. Most Western Europeans probably are related to Charlemagne to some degree, however far-fetched, but still what defines us aren't bloodline, but nation. Language, tradition, flag and customs matter more to Europeans when the issue of differentiating Europeans come up. In my veins are blood from all kind of contemporary NATIONS north of lower Donau, still I'm Swedish; because I'm born and raised here. But ethnically I'm probably more Finn than Swede, but that doesn't matter: I don't know Finland, but if SWEDEN would have existed today as it was 220 years ago, there would be no discussions: there were no Finns, only "eastern Swedes". The Finnish nation was politically created later, even if there once were people called Finns. Just as modern Hungarians' only relations to Huns and Magyars are the words "Hungary" and "Magyarorszag".

    A little OT, but to jump to the point: you apparently agree that a nation(state) isn't generally important for a folk to exist, but eradicating a nation-state means that its formed identity, it's political consiousness, will go away also. Sweden will disappear if the nation-state disappears, and Swedes may soon after that stop calling themselves Swedes. Still, the folk remain and exist, the Swedish branch of the Scandinavians, branch of a world-wide breed of European Man.
    So I must call myself Pan-European. Many nations aren't "needed", and other kind of political entities are being formed right now . Question is: is it to be a Multi-Kulti urbanised ghetto regionalisation, or something else?

    Those who want to "preserve cultures", can't be anti-Nation(-state). Those who understand that cultures are built and destroyed for every generation, should surf the waves of time. Irrelevant hypothesis: "How do we unite our race, and preserving (national) cultures?". Answer: "You can't". Relevant hypothesis: "Preservation is acting against time. If everything changes, why bother?" Answer: "Question isn't 'keep what?', but 'create what?, which direction?', only the fundamental essence of the creating force must continue to exist, in one form or another. Swedish language is Anglo-Americanized, thus a corner stone of our national identity is changing, with each generation."

  10. #20
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    Post Re: Are you more nationalist or pan-european?

    I want separate countries, try anything else and you have conflict and war. But separate countries with cooperation, of course. Between nationalist governments.

    [Edit: Rule 5. Ad gentums, racial slurs, and aspersions against any identifiable group, even if only in retaliation, are not permitted.]
    Last edited by Siegmund; Tuesday, September 20th, 2005 at 07:40 AM.

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