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Thread: More on HG3 (EU19)

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post More on HG3 (EU19)

    The steppes of Central Asia are the perfect environment for animal husbandry, and archaeological remains of animals such as cattle and goats date back to 6,000 years ago. The domestication of the horse, dating back to the 3rd millennium B.C. in the area between the Dnieper and Volga Rivers (Anthony 1986; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994), may have been a particularly important event in the history of the people of the steppes, bringing changes, at all social levels, in subsistence, transportation, and warfare. On a general level, it allowed the development of a more pronounced pastoral nomadism, characterized by seasonal migrations over longer distances, much higher population mobility (Anthony [1986] proposes a factor of five), and, therefore, a higher likelihood of population growth and expansion. Archaeological records (Anthony 1986; Lin 1992; Dexter and Jones-Bley 1997) suggest that several expansion waves of nomadic groups from the Eurasian steppes reached Central Asia. They are described in Chinese historiography as horse-riding, Caucasian-looking, Indo-European speaking people and are sometimes referred as the "Kurgan Culture," with a homeland said to be in the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas (Dexter and Jones-Bley 1997).

    Zerjal et al. (1999) postulated that haplogroup 3 could be the most evident male genetic legacy of this population expansion. It is interesting to note that haplogroup 3 is present at relatively low frequency in the Caucasus, as well as in the Middle East (Hammer et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000). It is possible that, in the expansion of these early nomadic groups, the Caucasus mountain range formed a significant barrier and that the region was already well populated. Instead, they spread easily in eastern Central Asia, and haplogroup 3 is common in those populations, even though its distribution shows differing extremes of frequencythe Kyrgyz and the Tajiks show 63% and 64%, respectively, whereas the Kazaks show only 3%but these variations are probably the result of drift during population bottlenecks or founder events, as discussed below.
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...27/023927.html




    HG 3, defined by a back mutation at SRY-1532, is virtually absent from African, eastern Asian, and Native American populations and is found at its highest frequency in central Asia (Hammer et al. 1998; Karafet et al. 1999; Zerjal et al. 1999)Russia, 50% and the Altai, 52%with a decreasing-frequency cline westward into Europe (Zerjal et al. 1999; Rosser et al. 2000); this evidence suggests central Asia as the source region of this marker. The distribution of HG 3 in Iran shows marked differences between western and eastern provinces (southwestern Caspian [3%] vs. eastern provinces [31%]) (fig. 1B), with a decreasing-frequency cline towards India (Pakistan [32%], northern India [26%]). When the very low frequencies of HG 3 in the Middle East (Hammer et al. 2000) are taken into account, the frequency pattern of HG 3 in southwestern Asia (table 1) supports the idea that Indo-European speakers spread from Central Asia into modern Iran via an eastern-Caspian route, as well as into India. The relatively high frequency and haplotypic diversity (D = .90) of HG 3 in our Indian sample suggests that the number of individuals entering from the west was large. This view is supported by the presence of HG 3 throughout most of the Indian subcontinent (table 1), showing that this lineage spread over a vast area.


    Figure 1 Frequency distribution of HG-9 (A) and HG-3 (B) Y chromosomes in southwestern Asia. The large map represents published data, and the inset represents new data. The comparative data are from Semino et al. (1996), Hammer et al. (1998), Zerjal et al. (1999), Hammer et al. (2000), and Rosser et al. (2000).


    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...18/002418.html

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    What I find interesting about Hg 3/Eu 19/R1a is the fact that the populations within Europe by which it is found in (W. Norwegians, Russian, Poles, Slovaks, E. Germans) are for the most part of similar phenotype ( [partially] Battle-Axe/Corded).

    Compare it to Hg 1/Eu 18/ R1b or Hg 2/Eu 7/I, which are comparatively quite diverse and multi-branched.

    If one looks at the populations by which the two respective gene markers (hg 1, hg 2) are widespread among, the phenotypes present differ greatly from one another.

    http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/nomenc...stem/fig1.html

    By no surprise, the given link shows 10 sub-branches for hg 2, 8 for hg 1, and only 4 for hg 3.

    If we go by haplotypes, Eu 18 yields 9 sub-branches, Eu7 8, and Eu 19 4 as well.

    The third system of numenclature shows I to have ten sub-brances, R1b to have 9 as well, and R1a to have 5.

    The mutation rates more or less correspond to the amount of diversity each respective haplogroup contains, with the mutation for hg 1 beinng the oldest (~23 000 YPB), hg 2 intermediate of the two (~14 000 YBP (?)), and hg 3 being the youngest of the three (~7500 YBP).

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    Post The Possible Origin of HG3 in South/West Asia?

    The Possible Origin of HG3 in South/West Asia?

    Author: Sug P
    Filed: 30/03/2003, 01:04:16
    Source: Various
    Readers' Comments: (0)

    M17 / R1a is Tyler-Smith System's HG3, Semino's EU19, and Su's H16 (Source), and is often classified the Aryan marker in India that the Kurgan invaders brought from the black sea region.

    However, the presence of the marker in high frequency and WITH high diversity even in South Indian non-Aryan speaking tribals, the likely hood of it being Aryan marker sounds less and less realistic. In fact, lower Indus Valley could very well be the source of differentian of the marker, deep in pre-history... and not brought by invaders.

    Source: Kivisild et al. (2003) Origins of Indian Castes and Tribes. American Journal of Human Genetics 72:313-332


    When compared with European and Middle Eastern populations (Semino et al. 2000), Indians (i) share with them clades J2 and M173 derived sister groups R1b and R1a, the latter of which is particularly frequent in India; and (ii) lack or show a marginal frequency of clades E, G, I, J*, and J2f.

    ...

    Clades Q and R share a common phylogenetic node P in the Y-chromosomal tree defined by markers M45 and 92R7 (YCC 2002). The P*(xM207) chromosomes are widespreadalthough found at low frequencies over central and eastern Asia (Underhill et al. 2000) and were also found only in two Indian samples (fig. 3) [One in South Indian Lambadi caste, and another in Gujaratis]. In contrast, their sister branch R, defined by M207, accounts for more than one-third of Indian Y chromosomes and is the most common clade throughout northwestern Eurasia. Its daughter clades R1 and R2 are both found in tribal and caste groups. Clade R1 splits into R1a and R1b, which are similarly variable in Indians (fig. 3) and western Asians but are less so in Estonians, Czechs, and central Asians (table 5). R2 (previously misidentified as "P1" [YCC 2002]) has a more specific spread, being confined to Indian, Iranian, and central Asian populations (table 3).

    ...

    The most common Y-chromosomal lineage among Indians, R1a, also occurs away from India in populations of diverse linguistic and geographic affiliation. It is widespread in central Asian Turkic-speaking populations and in eastern European Finno-Ugric and Slavic speakers and has also been found less frequently in populations of the Caucasus and the Middle East and in Sino-Tibetan populations of northern China (Rosser et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Nebel et al. 2001; Weale et al. 2001). No clear consensus yet exists about the place and time of its origins. From one side, it has been regarded as a genetic marker linked with the recent spread of Kurgan culture that supposedly originated in southern Russia/Ukraine and extended subsequently to Europe, central Asia, and India during the period 3,000-1,000 B.C.

    ...

    Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (>50%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to <10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002). Our low STR diversity estimate of haplogroup R1a in central Asians is also consistent with the low diversities found by Zerjal et al. (2002) and suggests a recent founder effect or drift being the reason for the high frequency of M17 in southeastern central Asia[Tajiks etc].

    In Pakistan, except for the Hazara, who are supposedly recent immigrants in the region, the frequency of M17 was similarly high in the upper and lower courses of the Indus River valley (Qamar et al. 2002).

    ...

    Unexpectedly, both southern Indian tribal groups examined in this study carried M17. The presence of different STR haplotypes and the relatively high frequency of R1a in [South Indian tribal] Chenchus (26%) make M17 less likely to be the marker associated with male "Indo-Aryan" intruders in the area. Moreover, in two previous studies involving southern Indian tribal groups such as the Valmiki from Andhra Pradesh (Ramana et al. 2001) and the Kallar from Tamil and Nadu (Wells et al. 2001), the presence of M17 was also observed, suggesting that M17 is widespread in tribal southern Indians.

    Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asparukh
    The Possible Origin of HG3 in South/West Asia?

    What this article seems to be suggesting, in a way, is that the Indo-Europeans originated in south or west Asia (perhaps even India?), and then moved north into Europe.

    However, there is one major thing wrong with that.

    The Europeans who carry EU19 (R1a) in large numbers are 100% European in terms of Y-chromosome, mtDNA and Autosomal DNA.

    On the other hand, the Indians and Pakistanis who carry EU19 in large numbers do not carry these other European gene markers to the same extent.

    Why is that? Did EU19 (R1a) make it all on it's own from India to Europe? How?

    Here is a very detailed report that deals with all sorts of gene markers in India...

    http://batzerlab.lsu.edu/Publication...20Research.pdf

    I don't think there's any way that EU19 originated in India. If it did, then that must've happend when the Indian population was 100% European (Caucasoid). And many of these people moved north quickly before those who stayed behind mixed with Asians. Highly unlikely...

    From everything I've seen, EU19 (R1a) seems to have originated in Central Asia.

    I personally believe that it is related to the high headed Caucasoid populations that stretched from Poland all the way to western China in anceint times. But I guess we'll see when we start testing ancient skeletal material....can't wait for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    What this article seems to be suggesting, in a way, is that the Indo-Europeans originated in south or west Asia (perhaps even India?), and then moved north into Europe.

    However, there is one major thing wrong with that.

    The Europeans who carry EU19 (R1a) in large numbers are 100% European in terms of Y-chromosome, mtDNA and Autosomal DNA.

    On the other hand, the Indians and Pakistanis who carry EU19 in large numbers do not carry these other European gene markers to the same extent.

    Why is that? Did EU19 (R1a) make it all on it's own from India to Europe? How?

    Here is a very detailed report that deals with all sorts of gene markers in India...

    http://batzerlab.lsu.edu/Publication...20Research.pdf

    I don't think there's any way that EU19 originated in India. If it did, then that must've happend when the Indian population was 100% European (Caucasoid). And many of these people moved north quickly before those who stayed behind mixed with Asians. Highly unlikely...

    From everything I've seen, EU19 (R1a) seems to have originated in Central Asia.

    I personally believe that it is related to the high headed Caucasoid populations that stretched from Poland all the way to western China in anceint times. But I guess we'll see when we start testing ancient skeletal material....can't wait for that.

    yep i would agree that central asia for some reason is the source of many clines. what i could get is ancient cromagnon dispersed eurasia and new world and more or less it may look like an amerind. and famous HG3is a descendent of eurasiatic cromagnon and is not related with corded people (who are a part of the neolithic expansion) and whom we can follow their traces since they are out of africa.
    if we associate indoeuropean with neolithic expansion then we cannot asociate it with HG3. neolithic remains from early kurgan series may be the origin of indoeuropean but it would mean that indoeuropean is an elite dominance model (i am in love with this model) on the cromagnid kurganid types.
    still indoeuropean may be a mixture then what would it be it would be neolithic and cromagnon language mixture. there is more to talk onthis subject but others may gie more information on language families and relations.
    there is just one thing to handle the presence of these haplotypes or ancestral lines perhaps in east africa. Corded seems to be originally east african. and are the agglutinative languages of africa related with the aglutinative upper paleolithic languages in new world and eurasia by genetics and lingually.
    best regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by asparukh
    yep i would agree that central asia for some reason is the source of many clines. what i could get is ancient cromagnon dispersed eurasia and new world and more or less it may look like an amerind. and famous HG3is a descendent of eurasiatic cromagnon and is not related with corded people (who are a part of the neolithic expansion) and whom we can follow their traces since they are out of africa.
    if we associate indoeuropean with neolithic expansion then we cannot asociate it with HG3. neolithic remains from early kurgan series may be the origin of indoeuropean but it would mean that indoeuropean is an elite dominance model (i am in love with this model) on the cromagnid kurganid types.
    still indoeuropean may be a mixture then what would it be it would be neolithic and cromagnon language mixture. there is more to talk onthis subject but others may gie more information on language families and relations.
    there is just one thing to handle the presence of these haplotypes or ancestral lines perhaps in east africa. Corded seems to be originally east african. and are the agglutinative languages of africa related with the aglutinative upper paleolithic languages in new world and eurasia by genetics and lingually.
    best regards

    Not sure where you got that impression.

    The Kurgans in Eastern Europe and Central Asia are filled with people who resemble the Corded type very closely. Some have called these people Cro-Magnids, but that's not really an issue.

    These skeletons are very high headed, long headed, tall, and have rather broad noses and foreheads compared to classic Nordics.

    Armenids were never a common type in Central Asia until very recent times. They were always more common in the near east, in places like the Caucasus and Syria.

    But the Indo-Europeans didn't come from the Caucasus - they came from the steppes to the north and east.

    There are no Kurgan mounds or even proto-Indo-European signs in the Caucasus.

    There was an article written recently by some Georgian that said the early Indo-Europeans were from the Caucasus and were Armenid in phenotype - but it didn't make much of an impact anywhere. It was totally out of date with current thinking.

    Another point to note is that the people who now live where proto-Indo-European, or Kurgan, arheological signs are most common - in southern Russia - are often very Corded in appearance. Is that a co-incidence? I don't think so. Not only that, but the Aryan Indians today show strong Corded signs as well, and would certainly do so more if they were not mixed with Asians.

    And I'm willing to bet that the Irano-Afghan type found in Central Asia has a very close affinity to the ancient Corded people.

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