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Thread: Ulster Scots History and Culture

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    Post Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch / The Ulster Scots Agency


    Tha Noarth-Sooth Boord ò Leid is cum aboot frae tha Bilfawst Greeance as yin o tha Noarth-Sooth boords. Tha Boord o Leid taks in twa faictòries, Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch an Tha Boord o Gaelick (Foras na Gaeilge). Ilka yin o thir twa faictòries haes its ain boord quhilk thegither maks tha Noarth-Sooth Boord o Leid. The preses o ilka Boord is baith Claucht-Preses o tha Boord o Leid.
    Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch bis gart unnèr tha laa guide tha "forderin o mair forstannin an uise o tha Ulstèr-Scotch leid an o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgate daeins, baith ben Norlin Airlann an athort tha islann".
    Tha Boord maun gie answer til tha Noarth-Sooth Cooncil o Männystèrs, an maist o aa tae tha twa Männystèrs, baith in tha Norlin Airlann Semmlie an Dáil Eireann, as taks adae wi tha leid an tha heirskip o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgates.
    Tha Boord is ootbye govermenn männystries, but haes laa-makkin pooers in baith kintras on tha islann o Airlann.
    Tha Boord wull hae its heich offis in Bilfawst, an an unnèr-offis in Dunnygal.
    The Ulster-Scots Agency, or Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch as it is known in Ullans, is a relatively new but important body that aims to promote the Ulster-Scots language and culture within the island of Ireland and beyond.
    The Agency is part of the North/South Language Body (Tha Boord o Leid); one of six new cross-border bodies born out of the Belfast Agreement, on Good Friday, 10 April, 1998.
    This body comprises two agencies, The Ulster-Scots Agency and Foras na Gaeilge, the agency responsible for the development of the Irish (Gaelic) language.
    Each agency has its own board, whose members together constitute the board of the North/South Language Body.
    The remit of the Ulster-Scots Agency is “the promotion of greater awareness and the use of Ullans and of Ulster-Scots cultural issues, both within Northern Ireland and throughout the island”.
    The Agency is jointly funded by the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure in Northern Ireland and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in the Republic of Ireland. The Agency is based in Belfast. It is opening a second office in east Donegal, an Ulster-Scots heartland area.
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    Last edited by Appalachian; Wednesday, September 7th, 2005 at 02:57 PM.

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    Post Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Cultural affinities between Ulster and the western coasts of Scotland probably extend back to at least 8000BC,, when the hunter-gatherers who were the first inhabitants of the north coast of Ireland, and whose remains have been found at Mount Sandel, Coleraine, arrived across the North Channel, which was even narrower then than its current 12 miles.



    During the Neolithic period, after the adoption of an agricultural way of life, massive stone monuments including passage tombs and court tombs were constructed over much of the northern part of Ireland and the west and north coasts of Scotland. Archaologist Barry Cunliffe observes that "The structural similarities and close geographical proximity of the Irish and Scottish monuments – seperated only by the narrow North Channel – is an indication that the two areas may well have been in regular contact with each other" (2001:171). Similar monuments are found on the western coasts of Wales and Cornwall, and the Atlantic coasts of Europe extending from Sweden to Portugal. Cunliffe has suggested that this shows the importance of the sea in binding together communities such as those in Ulster and Scotland at a time when travel by land was much more difficult.



    During the Bronze Age the communal burial rites of the megalithic monuments started to give way to individual burials with grave goods including pottery, reflecting social changes spreading through the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe. Cunliffe observes that the new traditions "including the pottery styles, are shared between eastern and northern Ireland and southern Scotland, particularly the west coast, and clearly indicate a broad zone of contact and cultural interaction extending over a long period of time. Thus, in the third and second millenia (BC) Ireland seems to crystallise into two broad cultural groupings, one facing outwards to the Atlantic and retaining its old collective burial rites, the other facing inwards to the Irish Sea and western Scotland and sharing in the escalating social changes which were gripping Britain at the time (2001:242).



    This pattern seems to continue into the Iron Age: Cunliffe notes that the range and quality of elite metalwork available througout the first millenium BC and into the first millenium AD are sufficient to suggest that much of eastern, central, and northern Ireland was under the domination of an aristocratic warrior elite, and it is within this broad central and eastern zone that the great ritual sites, Tara, Navan, Rathcroghan, and Dun Ailinne, are to be found. The Atlantic-facing lands from Co. Donegal to Co. Kerry in the west and from Co. Cork to Co. Wexford in the south lie, for the most part, outside this zone of elite dominance and, apart from a few scattered exotic artefacts emanating from the elite zone, lack a distinctive material culture. Thus, although the artifactual evidence is disparate and contextually lacking, it does suggest that Ireland, in the later first millenium BC, divided into two distinctive socio-economic zones.


    The epic tales of ‘the Ulster Cycle’, which were written down by Christian monks in the early medieval period, but probably passed down in the oral tradition for centuries beforehand, have been described by Jackson as "a window on the Iron Age". They portray a society in Ulster dominated by a warrior elite, in accordance with the archaeological evidence. They describe an Ireland divided into five Provinces: Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Meath, some of the stories suggesting that the boundary of Ulster lay as far south as the Boyne during this period. They also record regular contacts with Alba, later to become Scotland. The warrior Cuchulain travelled there to be trained in the martial arts, and Deirdre of the Sorrows fled there to escape the wrath of the king of Ulster, her lover Naoise taking service with the king of the Picts.


    Ian Adamson has demonstrated the presence in Ulster during the Iron Age of a people known as the Cruthin or Qretani (1974). These are Gaelic or Q-Celtic interpretations of the name Pretani or Prydein which referred to the same people in the P-Celtic or Brittonic language of the neighbouring island. The names Prydein and Pretani were later romanised as Britain and Britons, which was the name by which the Romans referred to those they had conquered. Those elements of the population in the area now known as Scotland, which they did not bring under their control, they referred to as Picts. The names Cruthin, Qretani, Pretani (and hence Briton)and Pict all translate into English as ‘People of the Pictures’ or ‘People of the Designs’, according with Roman accounts of the Britons as heavily painted or tattooed (Davies 1999).



    Pictish settlement in Ulster may not have been as extensive as Adamson has claimed, but it seems clear that they formed a significant part of the population of the north-eastern coastal region. The Ulster Cycle legends also make reference to Pictish warriors in Ireland..

    The Pictish language was a P-Celtic or Brittonic language, whose closest modern relatives are Welsh and Breton. It is preserved in many Scottish placenames, but there is little evidence of its use in Ulster, and it seems likely that the Cruthin adopted the Gaelic tongue of their neighbours, and eventually became culturally assimilated..

    During the 4th Century, Gaels from Ulster whom the Romans described as Scoti or Scots, a term meaning raiders or pirates, allied themselves with the Picts and with other tribes including Saxons from northern Europe to raid the Roman province of Brittania. In the course of this raiding, a romanised Briton named Patricius was seized from his home in northwestern Britannia and taken into slavery in Ulster. He escaped but later returned as an evangelist for Christianity basing himself in Armagh. Cunliffe notes that "If Patrick’s original home was in the north of Britain, possibly in the romanised region of Dumbarton (The Fort of the Britons), his choice of the north of Ireland would have been entirely logical in that he would have been following the long-established and no doubt still-operative trade route across the North Channel (2001:469).

    In the 5th and 6th Centuries, raiding gave way to settlement: the Life of St. Columba tells of the landing of a small band of 150 men from Dal Riata in Antrim (Cunliffe 2001:459-60) who gave their name to the land they settled Ar Gael (Argyll) ‘The Coast of the Gaels’.



    From this modest initial settlement grew the powerful kingdom of Dalriada, which held power on both sides of the sea. The settlement is well attested by placenames of Irish origin on the mainland and adjacent islands. Similar evidence also points to Irish settlement on the Galloway peninsula. That the settlers on the two sides of the North Channel should have been in close contact with each other in the 5th and 6th centuries need occasion no surprise. A community of common cultural ideas can be traced back to the Neolithic period when the region was closely linked by a common burial ritual, and throughout the Iron Age and Roman period the archaeological record shows that there was constant contact. The 150 settlers mentioned by St. Columba’s biographer were simply part of a continuing process of interaction.

    Columba (also known as Columb or Colmcille: ‘The Dove of the Church’), was himself an example of the significance of continued ties between Ulster and the the land which was in the process of becoming Scotland. Originally from Donegal, Columba had founded the monastic settlement at Doire (Derry), where the Church of Ireland cathedral still bears his name.

    In about 563 Columba sailed from northern Ireland with twelve followers to Dalriada in west Scotland, and two years later founded a monastery on the island of Iona…The establishment flourished and became highly influential, both as the focus of a group of Columbian monasteries spread throughout the north of Ireland and as the centre from which the Picts were converted (Cunliffe 2001:475).


    The Scottish settlement of Dalriada existed alongside Pictland until"by a combination of aggression and intermarriage, the Scots merged with their Pictish neighbours, The traditional date of the final union is 843, when the whole of the Highlands and Islands came under the rule of Kenneth macAlpine. Throughout these four formative centuries the Scots retained a close relationship with their northern Irish forbears, and indeed much of their history as we know it comes from the Irish Annals…the importance of the sea in linking the communities was crucial (Cunliffe 2001:466).



    Although the Scots were still a minority of the population, it was their language and culture that gradually came to dominate northern Britain, and from this time on, the kingdom of Scotland was a reality. It only encompassed the central part of the area we now call Scotland however. To the south were the Romano-British Kingdom of Strathclyde, centred on Dumbarton, the Viking Kingdom of Jorvik (York) and the Anglian kingdom of Northumbria, whilst Moray, Caithness and the northern and western isles came to be largely dominated by Vikings, who also maintained a fleet of longships on Lough Neagh, adding a Scandinavian element to the Ulster-Scottish heritage.



    The maritime kingdom of Dalriada was replaced by the ‘Lordship of the Isles’ under the powerful Macdonald clan, who traced their descent to the Viking Somerled. The Macdonalds maintained a presence in Ulster, where they became known as MacDonnells, their stronghold being the spectacular castle at Dunluce, County Antrim, and the Lords of the Isles maintained their independence from the Kings of Scotland until the 13th century, holding their maritime realm together with Viking-style galleys, or Bir linn. The traditional wooden fishing boats of Ulster, known as Drontheims, are directly descended from the Viking longships, and a few are still sailed on the north coast.

    In 1603, King James VI, now in control of all the territory we currently call Scotland, became King of England as well, following the death of the childless Queen Elizabeth. His first project was ‘The Breaking of the Border’: the subjugation of the turbulent border clans who had effectively ruled the frontier regions of England and Scotland, which James wanted to change from an almost permanent battleground between the two kingdoms into "the Middle Shires’ of a new ‘Great Britain’.


    James then turned his attention to an equally turbulent part of his newly acquired domains – Ulster. He planned to settle Scottish Protestants there in order to subjugate the rebellious Catholic natives, and integrate the province into the new ‘British’ economic system. The task was initiated by private enterprise, the counties of Antrim and Down being effectively settled by Presbyterian Scots under the auspices of two Ayrshire lairds, and a similar project was initiated in County Monaghan. The ‘Flight of the Earls’ in 1607 made much greater areas of land available, and this led to a massive state-sponsored Plantation in the six remaining counties of Ulster. The effect of the various Plantations was that Antrim and Down became largely dominated by a Scots-speaking, Presbyterian immigrant population, whilst the whole of Ulster received a significant number of immigrants, mostly Scots, but including a smaller number of English, most of whom were borderers. Many of the Scots were also borderers: refugees or fugitives from James’ army, whilst others were from the western lowlands, with a smaller number from the extreme north-east, chiefly economic migrants fleeing recession and the collapse of rural communities brought about by the change from feudalism to a mercantilist economic system.



    For James, the plantations seemed to kill three birds with one stone, pacifying the Gaelic natives of Ulster, making a region which had been reduced almost to desert by years of war economically productive, and removing a surplus population from Scotland, particularly rebellious borderers and ideologically dangerous Presbyterians. Of course, it did not work out exactly as planned.



    It was as a result of these population movements that Ulster-Scots became the dominant tongue in those areas that had received the heaviest Scottish settlement, as well as influencing the English spoken throughout the province. It is a mistake to see Ulster-Scots culture as purely a result of the Plantation, however. As we have seen, this was only the latest of a series of population movements and cultural exchanges going back millenia.

    During the 18th and early 19th centuries, Ulster experienced massive out-migration to North America as a result of continued economic and religious oppression of both Presbyterians and Catholics. These immigrants, who were called ‘Scotch-Irish’ became hugely influential, particularly in Pennsylvania and the southern colonies, and played a major role in the American Revolution which ended British rule. Their language and culture metamorphosed in response to the new environment and new cultural contacts, but many cultural commonalites remained, particularly in religious practice and in music. The impact of Ulster-Scots participation in the American Revolution also fed back into Ulster, contributing to the growth of the United Irishmen movement in Ulster-Scots communities, and to their traumatic involvement in the rebellion of 1798.

    Throughout the modern period, constant movement between Ulster and Scotland has continued from the voyages of fishermen, to the seasonal migration of farm workers, to the permanent migration in both directions into industrial cities such as Belfast and Glasgow. These links are perhaps most strongly symbolised and constantly recreated by the massive support within Ulster for Glasgow Celtic and Glasgow Rangers football clubs. These movements, of course, always included the movement of music and musicans which has been documented since the time of the Gaelic harpers, and no doubt goes back as long as the islands have been inhabited.
    http://www.qub.ac.uk/sa-old/resource...ryCulture.html
    Last edited by Appalachian; Wednesday, September 7th, 2005 at 02:52 PM.

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    Post History of the Scotch-Irish or Ulster Scot

    Scotland

    Most Ulster Scots were in Scotland before they migrated to Ireland. MOST but not ALL.. We'll discuss where else they might have been later. But for now, where were they in Scotland and when did they move to Ireland and why?

    Most of them were in areas of Scotland adjacent to Ireland. The largest migration of Scots to Ireland was in the early 1600's. Due to lack of definitive records, we do not have exact numbers, but in the early 1600's 120,000 are believed to have migrated -- from both England and Scotland. Bailyn says in one 24 month period in the 1630's at least 10,000 Scots migrated to Ireland (Bailyn, Bernard. The Peopling of British North America: An Introduction, Vintage Books, 1988, p 26).

    In the early 1600's Ireland was the primary destination for migrating Scots because it provided opportunities that Scotland couldn't offer-- and Scots were not welcome in English colonies. Protestants were welcome. Catholic Scots, of which there are many, were not welcomed by the government in Ireland, though some did come, largely at the behest of Scottish Catholic lords, on whose lands in Scotland they may have already been living. But the bulk were Presbyterian lowlanders. They include a group of Protestant lowlanders that the Scottish government settled in Kintyre. They were run off by hostile natives and sheltered by Sir Randal McDonald (Catholic) on his lands in Antrim. He appreciated the lowland farmer. This group were a few of the many victims of the McDonald/Campbell feud.

    Many tenant farmers came from Ayrshire -- though Ireland attracted enterprising landlords and merchants from all over Scotland. Other Scots had come from Argyle and other McDonald homelands in the mid 1500's with the McDonalds. Many of them were Catholic. They are still settled in the Glens of Antrim. Many are ethnically Irish because they are Catholic.

    Another source of Scottish and English settlers was the Scottish/English border. At the time, James I/VI was breaking up those clans to secure the border between the two countries. Many fled hanging in England or Scotland to Ireland, largely settling in Fermanagh.

    Often lords acquiring lands in Ireland recruited from their own Scottish estates or the estates of their neighbors, relatives, and friends.

    An unknown number of Scots fled back to Scotland in the 1630's to avoid religious persecution in Scotland.

    Ulster

    In the early 1600's the Scots joined a small Irish population. Since poor Ulster had been decimated by more than 50 years of war at the time of the Plantations there were not many Irish. AND, contrary to popular belief, they were not "run off". If you doubt me, read Elliott The Catholics of Ulster --or any number of history books. True, the government WANTED to run them off and pursue a "Cherokee" type solution. However they were very short of men to farm and bring in the harvests. They could not afford to displace the Irish as their lives depended on them staying to bring in the harvests.Though the law prohibited the newcomers from renting to Irish, many did anyway. The Church (Protestant) was under no such restraints so many of its tenants were Irish.

    The Ulster Irish spoke of course Irish, which was simply a different dialect of Gaelic. Scots and Irish could communicate without difficulty. This isn't surprising since the Scotti, an Irish tribe, moved from Ireland originally. They also followed similar naming patterns to the Irish. There were sons of Hughs, Johns, and James everywhere. So they sometimes ended up with the same or similar surnames as the incoming Scots.

    Due to the destruction caused by war, there were no habitable houses. All the churches were in ruin. There were very few priests or Protestant clergy. It is documented that in at least one Antrim parish the entire Irish population became Presbyterian because the only minister about was the Scottish Presbyterian minister. If you wanted the baby baptized, he did it. In a world where religion was not yet politicized, this happened without communal pressure -- in some locations.

    In 1641 many Ulster Scots were killed by the Irish in the Rising, but we are not sure how many. We do not know how many people were in Ulster as many had fled to Scotland in the 1630's to avoid the Black Oath. In 1642 more Scots arrived to defend the survivors as part of Monroe's army. It founded the first Presbyterian presbytery in Ireland. Before that, there was none. Though Presbyterian, not all these men were lowlanders. I have an ancestor who presumably arrived in 1642 in Monroe's army. He came from Kintyre and was a Lamont, though the surname of his descendants is BLACK. They settled into Antrim.

    In the 1680's more Scots came to Ireland, fleeing the Killing Times in south western Scotland.

    In the late 1690's another period of enhanced Scots immigration to Ireland occurred after King William secured his throne. Apparently whole new towns and villages sprang up at this time. There is also evidence of a famine in Scotland which caused increased migration.

    After the Williamite Settlement there were no large movements of Scots to Ireland because economic conditions in Ireland were not good. Sometimes they fled to Ireland to avoid religious persecution, though sometimes they fled back to Scotland to escape it in Ireland. People also moved in both directions at various times to avoid political problems. People also migrated seasonally to Scotland to work on farms.

    Non-Scots "Ulster Scots"

    However not all "Ulster Scots" were from Scotland. Assimilating into this ethnic group, which has become synonymous for Presbyterians in Northern Ireland, were the English settlers of the Ulster Plantations. The English did not survive well in the tough climate of Ulster in the early 1600's. The Scots tended to replace them even in the English Plantations.

    Other English/Welsh blood was donated by the Chichesters, who started a colony of their tenants in Antrim from their lands in Devon and Wales in the later 1500's. This is called the "Lost English Colony". The surnames remain in the Belfast area.

    Also you have other immigrants such as the Thompson family, who emigrated from Holland. They became a prominent Belfast merchant family. After 1690 many of King William's continental soldiers settled in Ireland. Not too many of Cromwell's soldiers were settled in Ulster since it already was largely in the hands of loyal Protestants.

    Protestants such as Huguenots and Germans also settled in Ireland in the 1600's. Many of these settled elsewhere in Ireland than Ulster, though there were settlements of Germans in Antrim and Huguenots in Lisburn -- as well as others.

    The surnames of the non-British settlers rapidly became anglicized so that they can be difficult to identify by surname alone.

    Finally Irish assimilated into the Ulster Scots ethnic group. As Irish converted to Protestantism, descendants assumed their families came from Scotland as they adopted the myths of the Ulster Scot as their own. However some don't. Surnames were fluid. Adopting a new ethnic identity was very simple: drop the O. Some Irish surnames began with Mac as well as Scots. By dropping the Mac, the name was anglicized and indistinguishable from English surnames.

    In the 1600's there appears to have been an ethnic fluidity in Ireland. Your "ethnicity" was determined more by your choice of religion rather than your ancestrage. In some areas in south Antrim, it is believed that, due to lack of both Catholic and Church of Ireland clergy and the presence of Gaelic-speaking Presbyterian clergy, the indigenous population became Presbyterian by default. The first Presbyterian minister in Bushmills was an Irishman named O'Quinn in the early 1600's. He preached in Irish to his congregation and went on missions to convert the Irish. Evidence remains that the Scottish Presbyterians maintained an active ministry in Irish though this became impossible to maintain due to the government policies outlawing the use of Irish. Meanwhile Scottish men were marrying Irish women -- who raised their offspring Catholic and Irish speaking. In fact, when the law was repealed in the early 1600's which made it illegal for Scots to marry Irish, we are told there was "great rejoicing".

    Let none of this of course detract from your current ethnic tag. We are who were are; our ancestors, however, may well have been something different. At one time they were Strathclydians, Mercians, Northumberlanders or Irish or Scots warriors fighting with Irish or Scots warriers of differing clans. These kingdoms and the clan rivalries are forgotten though at one time their inhabitants fought bitterly with one another to establish their cultures in Great Britain. In fact, the Scotti of Roman days were an Irish clan -- from County Antrim. They later invaded Scotland (500 AD) and won the local cultural battle with the Picts.

    As long as Ireland and Scotland have been next to each other, there's been migration between the two to adjacent areas. Ulster is adjacent to Scotland -- so that's where many Scots went. It was easy to go over and come back again.

    Often it was difficult to tell a Scot from an Irish because in many cases, they shared a common culture and spoke a common tongue. They had similar cultures. Many Scots clans are founded by Irish clans. In fact, Scotland is a colony of Ireland. Before 500 AD the "Scotti" were in Ireland. Scotland was called "Alba" then and Picts lived there. The Scotti established a colony on the western shores. Eventually these Antrim boys lost their lands in Ireland to marauding Irish clans, but they supplanted the Picts. Kenneth McAlpin united the thrones of the Picts and Scots. However the eastern lowlanders were a different people. They are the descendants of Angles and Vikings and Pictish clans, not the Irish Scotti.

    In the late Middle Ages a new phenomena began to occur that would have a massive impact on Ireland. Irish lords began to hire Scottish mercenaries to help fight their intertribal and wars with the English. They were called Galloglass soldiers from the Irish gall oglaigh or stranger soldiers. They were apparently from the western Scotland and of mixed Scots and Viking origin. They changed the course of history in the 1500's. Through one dynastic marriage an Irish lord got 10,000 of these soldiers. Some of them settled down in Ireland and established clans of their own. The McSweenies are one example of a galloglass clan who assimilated into the Irish. If they stayed Catholic, they assimilated into the Irish and lost their ethnic identity as Scots.

    As mentioned, the majority of the Ulster Scots came in the Ulster Plantation period. They came willingly, recruited by their lairds, many of whom were also acquiring Irish estates. Their forte was not only farming but also the skilled labor required to create a colony. They could build homes, raise livestock, blacksmith, and so on.

    Seventeen Hundreds

    Much of the text on this page has focused on the sixteen hundreds since it was the formative period of the Ulster Scots. It was also a very turbulent hundred years in Ireland. Nonetheless, Scots didn't attempt to emigrate to the Americas in any large numbers. A few did leave. In fact Rev Mckemie began the Presbyterian Church in America. However most didn't leave till the 1700's.

    In the early 1700's the political situation in Ireland stabilized. There would be no more rebellions till 1798. However economic conditions worsened, at least partially due to trade restrictions placed on the economy by Parliament.These laws also impacted the Scottish economy. Consequently Ireland was no longer an attractive destination for immigrants.

    While in the 1600's the Presbyterians were persecuted and neither they or Catholics worshipped in churches, as the Penal Laws were reduced in the 1700's, they began to construct churches, called meeting houses. While in the 1600's it was common for families to move to new farms frequently, in the 1700's people "settled down" and attempted to hold onto the lease that they'd had. Thrown into competition over reduced resources, Irish and Scots began to conflict locally. For instance the Hearts of Oak disturbance.

    The great wave of emigration of Ulster Scots to American began in 1718 and continued till the start of the American Revolution.

    Click here to continue.
    http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle...htm#HistUlster

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    Post Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture





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    Post Re: Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch / The Ulster Scots Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by Appalachian
    Tha Noarth-Sooth Boord ò Leid is cum aboot frae tha Bilfawst Greeance as yin o tha Noarth-Sooth boords. Tha Boord o Leid taks in twa faictòries, Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch an Tha Boord o Gaelick (Foras na Gaeilge). Ilka yin o thir twa faictòries haes its ain boord quhilk thegither maks tha Noarth-Sooth Boord o Leid. The preses o ilka Boord is baith Claucht-Preses o tha Boord o Leid.
    Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch bis gart unnèr tha laa guide tha "forderin o mair forstannin an uise o tha Ulstèr-Scotch leid an o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgate daeins, baith ben Norlin Airlann an athort tha islann".
    Tha Boord maun gie answer til tha Noarth-Sooth Cooncil o Männystèrs, an maist o aa tae tha twa Männystèrs, baith in tha Norlin Airlann Semmlie an Dáil Eireann, as taks adae wi tha leid an tha heirskip o Ulstèr-Scotch fowkgates.
    Tha Boord is ootbye govermenn männystries, but haes laa-makkin pooers in baith kintras on tha islann o Airlann.
    Tha Boord wull hae its heich offis in Bilfawst, an an unnèr-offis in Dunnygal.
    Is that Appalachian again?
    At first I thought it related to the rest of the posts, but knowing very well the everyday speech of both Scotland and north east Ulster I know that no-one talks like that.
    Last edited by Milesian; Tuesday, September 20th, 2005 at 11:12 AM.

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    Post Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Appalachian
    [IMG]

    That map is pretty misleading. For a start, there is no single "Scots" stretching over Northern Ireland and part of Scotland. Within Scotland itself, you have Doric being spoken in Grampian (which seems to have some SCandinavian and even Pictish influence), you have the Fife people speaking a more lilting dialect, the Lothian people have a somewhat stronger dialect again, and the Glaswegians have a brogue which is obviously influenced by the Irish accent of the north. So-called "Scots" is also spoken in the regions where "Gaelic" is indicated. In fact there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers, it is just that these areas likely have the highest concentration of bilingual speakers. The Hebrides more than Sutherland and other areas marked though. In addition, the "Scots" spoken in Northern Ireland is pretty archaic and peculiar. In fact when speaking to some of them of a certain political persuasion,they seem to attempt to pepper their sentences with more and more Scottish sounding words (or words they percieve to be) in an attempt to sound more Scottish-like themselves. The result is that they sound like something out of a Burns poem or a parody of what foreigners think Scots sound like, rather than the normal everyday speech of the Scottish people themselves. Perhaps I'm just being cynical though. Anyway, It's debatable whether you could term it is the same dialect as that spoken in Scotland itself.. Even worse, the people from Grampian region are often difficult to understand. Not just their accent, but their use of words which are peculiar to them can make then incomprehensible to other Scots at times. I would think someone from N.I. would be lost in conversation with them much of the time.

    In addition, the colour coding would make one think that the "Gaelic" of Scotland was seperate from the "Irish" of Ireland. In fact the former is simply a dialect of the latter. Although treated officially as a seperate language (which is fair enough in the interests of national pride), linguistically they are still close enough to be able to be treated as either. The Irish of Donegal is as close to Scots Gaelic as it is to the Irish of the rest of the country, The relationship between the various kinds of Gaelic are complex and interwoven.

    Lastly, I would note that it seems to show Irish as not being spoken in Northern Ireland. That would seem strange considering that the Irish language has the highest rates of growth there.


    One would think that there might be a political agenda with some of these maps and posts
    Perhaps Dr. Dami should have done a bit more research. Leaving the University of Geneva to do some field work might have been a good idea
    Last edited by Milesian; Tuesday, September 20th, 2005 at 11:46 AM.

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    So let me get this straight:

    You're trying to tell us that the map is faulty because Ulster Scots and Doric don't count as the same language due to the fact that they're spoken on different islands. Then you want to tell us that the map is again faulty because Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic are essentially the same language, despite the fact that they're spoken on different islands.


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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    That map is pretty misleading. For a start, there is no single "Scots" stretching over Northern Ireland and part of Scotland. Within Scotland itself, you have Doric being spoken in Grampian (which seems to have some SCandinavian and even Pictish influence), you have the Fife people speaking a more lilting dialect, the Lothian people have a somewhat stronger dialect again, and the Glaswegians have a brogue which is obviously influenced by the Irish accent of the north. So-called "Scots" is also spoken in the regions where "Gaelic" is indicated. In fact there are no monoglot Gaelic speakers, it is just that these areas likely have the highest concentration of bilingual speakers. The Hebrides more than Sutherland and other areas marked though. In addition, the "Scots" spoken in Northern Ireland is pretty archaic and peculiar. In fact when speaking to some of them of a certain political persuasion,they seem to attempt to pepper their sentences with more and more Scottish sounding words (or words they percieve to be) in an attempt to sound more Scottish-like themselves. The result is that they sound like something out of a Burns poem or a parody of what foreigners think Scots sound like, rather than the normal everyday speech of the Scottish people themselves. Perhaps I'm just being cynical though. Anyway, It's debatable whether you could term it is the same dialect as that spoken in Scotland itself.. Even worse, the people from Grampian region are often difficult to understand. Not just their accent, but their use of words which are peculiar to them can make then incomprehensible to other Scots at times. I would think someone from N.I. would be lost in conversation with them much of the time.

    In addition, the colour coding would make one think that the "Gaelic" of Scotland was seperate from the "Irish" of Ireland. In fact the former is simply a dialect of the latter. Although treated officially as a seperate language (which is fair enough in the interests of national pride), linguistically they are still close enough to be able to be treated as either. The Irish of Donegal is as close to Scots Gaelic as it is to the Irish of the rest of the country, The relationship between the various kinds of Gaelic are complex and interwoven.
    Your post is actually quite misleading. Scots is a collection of closely related dialects, Doric being one dialect of Scots and Ullans or Ulster Scots being another dialect. Having divergent dialects is a common feature of perhaps every language in the world.

    Of course no single Scots is spoken, the map doesnt claim that it simply shows the distribution of speakers of that language and not a break down of its various dialects, as England is also shown in the same colour yet England as many more and greater divergent dialects than Scots.
    If you want a break down of the various Scots dialects check out this thread
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40774

    Its quite disturbing that you as an Irishman living in Scotland seem to have such a disparaging view of the local language.
    Last edited by Wayfarer; Sunday, December 4th, 2005 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Added link to thread os Scots dialects
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture


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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Just across the Irish Sea
    Stirs a heart of Loyalty
    Raised in Honour and in dignity
    Drives a will to keep us British free
    Not alone are we on this journey
    For in a land just across the sea
    Is a hand that reaches out in friendship
    And a bond thats lasted centuries

    And it''s hands across the water
    Reaching out for you and me
    For Queen, For Ulster and For Scotland
    Helps to keep our Loyal people free
    Let the cry be "No Surrender"
    Let no-one doubt this Loyalty
    Reaching out to the Brave Red Hand of Ulster
    Is the hand across the sea
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
    Gyff fredome failyhe, for fre liking
    Is yharnyt our all other thing.
    Na he that ay has levyt fre
    May nocht knaw weill the propyrte
    The angyr na the wrechyt dome
    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
    Bot gyff he had assayit it.
    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


    Scots is our mother tongue; and if we do not preserve it,
    nobody will preserve it for us.

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