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Thread: Ulster Scots History and Culture

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Must I remind you all that William Wallace, the Scots freedom fighter was tortured to death and had his head impaled on London Bridge. (A typical punishment for treason, although Wallace never once swore fealty to an English king.) <--Rebut before moving on to my latter inquiries, so that I may be better informed.

    So the Scots King James married into the English royal line and enjoyed ruling Great Britain for a while, has there been a true Scots sovereign enthroned since?

    What about the recent dissolution of the Royal Scottish Regiment?

    Are you positing that there have been no incidence of Massacres of the Irish by the English? What about 1/3 of Irish pop. dying during the reign of Elizabeth I.

    English oppression, a myth? The assertion is laughable.
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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    When we look at Geography, the Tyne-Solway Isthmus is the narrow stretch of land that ancient Druid tribes inhabited between Scotland and Britain.

    It was this geographical narrowness that prohibited large migration of genes and genetic culture north into Scotland. It is what separated, ethnically and in genes, Scotland from Britian.

    When I check back on my Scottish Ancestors, I see a VERY STRONG Norweigan genetic line.

    Somerled was a Norwiegan-Scot-Pict. Large parts of the costal regions of Scotland and Ulster are Blond, Blue eyed Norweigans and we are proud of our Norse Viking Pict fighting blood.

    My Blood steams when I hear we Ulster Scots don't have definition. Look at a map of the Forth-Clyde Isthmus it's very narrow between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

    Tacitus (writing c.AD98) regards all the country north of the Forth-Clyde line as Caledonia, and, because of the narrowness of the isthmus which separates the Forth from the Clyde (and because, at the time he was writing about, it marked the boundary between Roman occupied and unoccupied Britain), he says it "might be called another island."

    Even the Roman historians drew the line between the "Caledonians" and the "Britons". There were two Ninth Roman Legions, one of them 50,000 strong disappeared 80 miles north of Edinborough. The Legions were erased from Roman Historical records. You don't want to mess with the Sons of Somerled.

    We Ulster Picts are form the Druid worlds.
    Last edited by Haplotype I; Saturday, January 28th, 2006 at 11:01 AM.





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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator X
    Must I remind you all that William Wallace, the Scots freedom fighter was tortured to death and had his head impaled on London Bridge. (A typical punishment for treason, although Wallace never once swore fealty to an English king.) <--Rebut before moving on to my latter inquiries, so that I may be better informed.

    So the Scots King James married into the English royal line and enjoyed ruling Great Britain for a while, has there been a true Scots sovereign enthroned since?

    What about the recent dissolution of the Royal Scottish Regiment?

    Are you positing that there have been no incidence of Massacres of the Irish by the English? What about 1/3 of Irish pop. dying during the reign of Elizabeth I.

    English oppression, a myth? The assertion is laughable.
    Following up on this my previous post.

    The reason why the Ulster Scots and Scots hide behind the all-encompassing term "British" is because they realize that if they didn't have the support of the English they would've been toast. The fact of what happened to William Wallace just shows that the English have been violently antagonistic to the Scots in the past, and King James' ascent to the British throne is just a cowardly compromise.

    Like the Edward was told in Braveheart, "Get ready, you are about to get your ass kissed by a king."

    I know this took place long before official union in the 18th century, but the sentiment still holds up.
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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by iMPERATOR x
    Must I remind you all that William Wallace, ...
    Must you?

    Why, with the illustrious pedigree you claim for yourself, do you go around under an Indian avatar, and giving out Hindu slogans?! Knocks me sick.

    Anyway,
    Speaking of old British-Irish contacts, I though I'd mention the Fir Domnann of Old Ireland, who are obviously the same as the Dumnonii of Devon, and Damnonii of Caledonia.
    And the Fir Bolg might well be the Belgae of SE Britain and NE Gallia.
    Cuchullain's real name was Setanta, inviting many curious parallels with the Setantii tribe of NW Britannia, centred around the Mersey [formerly Seteia], and associated in Welsh legend with the great sea farer Seithennin.
    St Brigid of Ireland is none other than the Bride of the Hebrides, the Brigindo of Gaul, the Goddess for whom the Brigantes of Leinster and Northern Britannia were named, as also the same tribal name in Galicia in Hispania, the river Brent in London, the town of Breganz on the Alpine Bodensee... ad infinitum!
    And things worked the other way, too. The Lleyn Peninsula of North Wales is named after the same Laginn that Irish Leinster was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haplotype I
    When we look at Geography, the Tyne-Solway Isthmus is the narrow stretch of land that ancient Druid tribes inhabited between Scotland and Britain.
    Eh?! What are you talking about, Man? Druids were a priesthood, not a kind of tribe, and in any case, they were found everywhere in the British Isles, as well as on the Continent.
    It was this geographical narrowness that prohibited large migration of genes and genetic culture north into Scotland. It is what separated, ethnically and in genes, Scotland from Britian.
    Give over! It wasn't an ethnic barrier before OR after the Roman period! The regions around Carlisle and Glasgow were steadfast Welsh speaking areas even into the last millenium. Even Edinburgh was until the Northumbrians made their presence truly felt in the 8th and 9th Centuries!
    After the Welsh faded away in the hinterland of Edinburgh, the area became an integral part of Anglian Bernicia, why do you think the capital has an English suffix? The narrowness of the isthmus never hampered this. I've actually walked across the isthmus - and it's not that narrow, let me tell you! Took me days, and my feet didn't half hurt.
    My Blood steams when I hear we Ulster Scots don't have definition. Look at a map of the Forth-Clyde Isthmus it's very narrow between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
    Mine too [the blood!] but I fail to see what the Antonine Wall has to do with this.
    Ulster settlers were drawn from many regions of mainland Britain, never mind Scotland. Even considering the majority Scotch element, many if not most of these were from the Borders, around your first narrow isthmus! THey are living proof that this isthmus was no barrier to geneflow.
    See the evidence of the spread of Border names on BOTH sides of the border;
    Armstrong;

    http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/uclnames...y=GB&type=name
    Lamb;

    http://http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/u...y=GB&type=name
    Bell;

    http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/uclnames...y=GB&type=name
    Elliot;

    http://cetl2.geog.ucl.ac.uk/uclnames...y=GB&type=name
    Even the Roman historians drew the line between the "Caledonians" and the "Britons". There were two Ninth Roman Legions, one of them 50,000 strong disappeared 80 miles north of Edinborough. The Legions were erased from Roman Historical records. You don't want to mess with the Sons of Somerled.
    That legion later reappeared in the Near East. And that would be the MANY TIMES GREAT grandfathers of Sorley!
    We Ulster Picts are form the Druid worlds.
    Everyone on the Atlantic seaboard is, near enough!

    By the way, if you like Somerled, then check out the attachment;
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswy
    Must you?

    Why, with the illustrious pedigree you claim for yourself, do you go around under an Indian avatar, and giving out Hindu slogans?! Knocks me sick.

    ;
    It makes me sick too. An Indian in a turban just doesn't seem Germanic.

    Seems fishy to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswy
    Must you?
    Eh?! What are you talking about, Man? Druids were a priesthood, not a kind of tribe, and in any case, they were found everywhere in the British Isles, as well as on the Continent.
    Haplotype I the Druid Proto-Celt Gene. The Druids were a genetic ethnic race for probably tens of thousands of years. The earliest Latin historians and Greek historians talk about the Druids. So there is no evidence older than that that proves otherwise. Greek historians made a difference between Druid and Kelts, what was is still being understood. It was hereditary, thus racial and genetic based. Look at MacDonalds 2005 Y-chromosone Haplotype study. Haplotype I could very well be the true native gene of the North Europe area. Iceland, Sweden, Scotland have high rates of it. And I think, if I have read the Tables right, Haplotype I is the ancient Druid, proto-Celt gene.

    The ancient Germanics at Goseck were probably not Druids, they may have pre-dated Druids and in fact I think the Goseck people spread wisdom to the west that became some of the Druid learnings. The Druids may have come, as a gene-type, a thousand years after the Goseck people. The Druids were in the west, they were not fully Nordic or central European, but of course there must have been marriages between Germanics and Druid from Scotland.

    DNA testing of skeletons from 6,800 year old Druid graves will be the only way to begin to get real, solid, dates and genetic groups of the Druids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswy

    Give over! It wasn't an ethnic barrier before OR after the Roman period! The regions around Carlisle and Glasgow were steadfast Welsh speaking areas even into the last millenium..
    The Clyde-Forth Isthmus was a constrictor on tribal migration from the south. There are no complete racial and genetic barriers, but there are impediments, such as the Clyde-Forth Isthmus and the Mediterranean, which obstruct racial tribal passage, and as such they are barrier and increase genetic and racial segregation.



    Clyde-Forth Isthmus divides Scotland from England. At the lower third of the White of Scotland, you can see how close Glasgow and Edinburgh are, each are on rivers, the Forth and the Clyde. Between these large inlets is the Isthmus what over the course of tens of thousands of years, only one tribe could hold, it was that narrow. Thus, since tribes married mostly within their tribe area, no racial mixing occured because of that Isthmus.

    Now of course the smarter tribes developed ships and sailed around starting in 7,000 BC. We Picts and Scots are a Sea and Ocean water culture, we've been like that for the last 12,000 years.

    Here is a map which shows the constriction of the land. Of course any bright Pict worth his and her salt, can of course, sail right around it.

    Germanic Influence North of the Clyde-Forth Isthmus. This is why we have Racial definiton. True Ancient Picts (Scots) have very high Norweigan blond and blue eyes and later Scots-Picts had genes brough in from Northern Germany and Prussia with the sailing trade.

    So you see there is much more genes from Norway and Germany above the Clyde-Forth Isthmus than below it. This is what is truly remarkable about the Old Scotland before the British invaded it, lol, or tried to.
    Last edited by Haplotype I; Sunday, January 29th, 2006 at 12:17 PM.





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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    My original points have still not been addressed. William Wallace... Name another Scot on the British throne besides King James I. The only Welshman I could name would have been Henry VII. Then his son Henry VIII and then Elizabeth, but through each generation the Welsh diminished more and more.

    Hinduism is a link to the ancient traditions of the mediterranean in particular. The paradigm is the same. Folk practices in India and in the Greco Roman worlds were very similar. Throughout history cults of foreign deities have spread well beyond the borders of their homeland. Isis' cult went from Egypt to Greece, then to Rome, and then to Gaul, Germany, and Britannia. The cult of Anatolian Cybele spread from Phrygia to Rome, and then on to Gaul. The examples of the spread of foreign deities in antiquity are near endless.

    Hinduism is the only pagan faith which has been able to preserve itself in such a great number for so long. It has resisted the advance of Christian and Islamic zealots. My avatar is of Shivaji Maharaj the saviour of the Hindu dharma. His armies repelled the onslaught of the Mughals who were intent on sacking India and converting all the Hindus to Islam.

    The saying goes "If not for Shivaji, we would all have been converted."

    Jai Hindusthan!
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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Haplotype I, much of what you say is unorthodox to say the least! I won't deal with it now, though. Druids vs Kelts. Hmm. I get most of my lore from C19th authors, to tell the truth - and they were far more versed in Classical literary criticism than anyone could imagine being now, and none of them read it the way you describe. Where are you getting it all from, can I ask?
    AS for Isthmuses, you sidetracked me a bit with the Solway Tyne isthmus [which isn't even really an isthmus, as it's a solid thick neck of land, really, and a continuation of the land around it.
    I do agree a little more with your characterisation of the Clyde Forth one, but even there [and I've driven up the Loch Lomond road many a time], one can't FEEL the narrowness especially. A Lothian ruler millenia ago could easily have invaded Fife by boat [but would he have wanted to?!] The original Scots came from the West across the sea, and Gaelic colonies were established eventually on both sides of the isthmus, as it never faced them!
    I'll have to read up on all the Y chromosome stuff I've accumulated over the years, before I dare to discuss the I haplotype thing, though I fear you're grievously mistaken on that score. I dimly remember reading of its Balkan/Near East origin, and how 'Neolithic Wave of Advance agricultural revolution' saw it sweep northwards, separating the two major varieties of the R haplotype into Western and Eastern areas. I don't know how the Clyde Forth line can have any impact on this.
    Geology certainly wakes up past that point though - the hills really shoot up!
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator X
    My original points have still not been addressed. William Wallace... Name another Scot on the British throne besides King James I.
    Name an Englishman since 1066! [Except Oliver ]
    Hinduism is a link to the ancient traditions of the mediterranean in particular.
    The duty of a man of Northern European stock who wishes to reconnect with his ancestors' preChristian past, is to learn what he can of the Northern religions. From that point of view, Mediterranean spirituality with its Pelasgian and Etruscan flavour is as much a foreign distortion of any original IE religion as Hinduism is.
    Do you honestly believe that a lot if not most of the more philosophical parts [in contrast to the onomastica of the mythos] of Hinduism are NOT the unique product of the insertion of a small number of Central Asian IEans into a radically different new tropical world of Dravidians and Munda?
    Even if we choose to discount the idea of substrate influence from the aborigines of the sub continent [which I am prepared to do to some extent], then there is still the highly likely possibility that Aryans themselves innovated in India.
    The paradigm is the same. Folk practices in India and in the Greco Roman worlds were very similar. Throughout history cults of foreign deities have spread well beyond the borders of their homeland. Isis' cult went from Egypt to Greece, then to Rome, and then to Gaul, Germany, and Britannia.
    Where it was promptly forgotten after the introduction of Christianity.
    Hinduism is the only pagan faith which has been able to preserve itself in such a great number for so long. It has resisted the advance of Christian and Islamic zealots. My avatar is of Shivaji Maharaj the saviour of the Hindu dharma. His armies repelled the onslaught of the Mughals who were intent on sacking India and converting all the Hindus to Islam.
    The saying goes "If not for Shivaji, we would all have been converted."
    Jai Hindusthan!
    Shivaji was obviously a great and righteous man, and worthy of our objective respect. But he's nothing to do with US. Geopolitical considerations allowed IE religion to survive on the far periphery of its original territory, but to assume it hadn't suffered [okay - 'undergone'!] significant distortion and independent evolution on the way there is madness.
    Consider if Christianity was obliterated everywhere in the world except in Utah, and then thousands of years later the mestizo population of the former First World all began aping Mormonism in an effort to ressurect their ancient heritage! And the English who invented Mormonism had only been out of England for a few generations! Good comparison, no?
    Hm, seems to me on a little reflection, that hardly any religion survives on its original turf, or in a form that would be approved of by its founders. The big exception is Islam I suppose. That nasty new Superbug of religious disease.
    Gods Help Us!

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator X
    and King James' ascent to the British throne is just a cowardly compromise.

    I know this took place long before official union in the 18th century, but the sentiment still holds up.
    So the Scots King James married into the English royal line and enjoyed ruling Great Britain for a while, has there been a true Scots sovereign enthroned since?
    Name another Scot on the British throne besides King James I. The only Welshman I could name would have been Henry VII. Then his son Henry VIII and then Elizabeth, but through each generation the Welsh diminished more and more.
    you make it sound like the English just gifted the English throne to him. I told you before that it is wise to refrain from forming an opinion on a matter you know little or nothing about.
    King James VI never married into the English throne nor was it given to him, he inherited the throne because of strange archaic royal laws. He was in line to the English throne because his mother was the granddaughter of Margaret Tudor. In line before him were the children of Henry VIII.
    King James may have been a wanker who would rather see his own mother (Mary Queen of Scots) killed so he could take over both thrones, but he was a good diplomat and tactician who gained alot of allies in England to support his claim despite being Mary Queen of Scots son and being of a different house to the ruling house in England. In 1603 he succeeded the English throne thus ending the rule of the Tudor dynasty and united the two thrones under the Stewart dynasty.
    You ask if a true Scot as ruled ever since, well since the Stuarts were a Scottish dynasty then Scots would have ruled the British throne until 1714. Thereafter no Scot nor even an English monarch has ruled even to this day.


    My original points have still not been addressed. William Wallace...
    The fact of what happened to William Wallace just shows that the English have been violently antagonistic to the Scots in the past
    Must I remind you all that William Wallace, the Scots freedom fighter was tortured to death and had his head impaled on London Bridge.
    What is your point?
    Like the Edward was told in Braveheart, "Get ready, you are about to get your ass kissed by a king."
    Braveheart is a bad work of fiction pretending to be history. A good film but none the less historically wrong. Anyway the Battle of Bannockburn where Scotland gained its Independence was in 1314, King James VI united the thrones in 1603, they are two unrelated events.
    What about the recent dissolution of the Royal Scottish Regiment?
    What about it? This has nothing to do with "English opression" since many English regiments are being merged too. It is the result of New Labours anti-British policies. Just take a look at the map of British Regions drawn up by this government. It in no way reflects regional identity, history or culture. It looks like some stupid beauracrat in Whitehall got a pen and drew across a map of the British Isles cut across England somewhere around the centre and called all of England to the north of the line the North, drew another line to divide the North in two and called them the North East and teh North West, another line dviding the South, callin it the South East and the South West, then dividing the central region and calling it the East Midlands and West Midlands. Is it any wonder the "Northern Assembly" was rejected by the folks there? Not because they didnt want one but because the region is so badly defined it didnt reflect their regional identity in the way the Scottish parlaiment and the Welsh and N Irish Assemblies do.
    Anyway as for the mergin of the Kings Own Scottish Borderers with the Royal Scots, its not going to happen .
    A! Fredome is a noble thing
    Fredome mays man to haiff liking.
    Fredome all solace to man giffis,
    He levys at es that frely levys.
    A noble hart may haiff nane es
    Na ellys nocht that may him ples
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    That is couplyt to foule thyrldome,
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    Than all perquer he suld it wyt,
    And suld think fredome mar to prys
    Than all the gold in warld that is.
    Thus contrar thingis evermar
    Discoveryngis off the tother ar,


    Scots is our mither tung; an gin we dinna hain it,
    thare naebody gaun tae hain it for us.


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    nobody will preserve it for us.

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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator X
    Hinduism is the only pagan faith which has been able to preserve itself in such a great number for so long. It has resisted the advance of Christian and Islamic zealots. My avatar is of Shivaji Maharaj the saviour of the Hindu dharma. His armies repelled the onslaught of the Mughals who were intent on sacking India and converting all the Hindus to Islam.

    The saying goes "If not for Shivaji, we would all have been converted."

    Jai Hindusthan!
    I'm terribly sorry, but Hinduism has nothing to do with Ulster Scots.





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    Re: Ulster Scots History and Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswy
    Where are you getting it all from, can I ask? ...
    Oh well, most of it is from Aristotle. Seems to be somewhat of a well reputed source, he is held with some degree of regard in some circles.

    As for Mr. Hindustani, I totally agree....God Help us!

    I'm just not sure what I can offer him in terms of direction. South maybe?





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