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Thread: Freedom, Power and Culture/The Transcendence or Phantom of Freedom?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    Your using Napoleon as an illustration of your own point highlights what I've said - freedom is something that comes with power. A person with an illusiory mental belief has a messed up mind (his capability - i.e. power - to think is wrecked) but he is still free.
    You're saying that NOW; it is I who has brought out the different facets of the concept of freedom. Your own originallly narrow characterisation of 'freedom' as 'the removal of restrictions' has been shown to be inadequate.

    "Tell me where I denied it, after I said negetive and positive freedom are one and the same thing".
    You wrote "freedom is not the power to do something" ('6 days ago at 18:01).

    "Not only was Rousseau an idiot, as Siegfried has said, but paradoxes are impossible. Aristotle: "It is impossible for the same thing at the same time to belong and not belong to the same thing at the same time and in the same respect." So tell me how one can be 'forced to be free'".
    Oh dear! Aristotelian Logic has long been surpassed. Check out the POSSIBLE paradoxes of Quantum Mechanics!
    Life itself is full of paradoxes, but then one would need to be a philosopher to understand that!
    Saying someone is an "idiot" is no argument.

    "He was not forced to be free because that is an impossibility. They used coercion to place him into a condition he did not choose to be in. They moved him from what most people (not wanting to serve someone else for the rest of their lives) would regard as slavery (he wanted it, so it would have been voluntary if he was allowed to choose, and he would have - which the Yankess did not permit - and so it was not slavery) into a real form of slavery, from the perspective of the Negro. He did not want to be his own master. But the yankess forced him out of the condition which he wanted (and would have chosen, if they had merely made sure force was not to be employed either way, and not made the decision for him) and into a condition he didn't want. He was not made 'free'. They moved the Negro from a state he preferred into a state he did not and they prevented him from making a decision which concerned his own life. Rousseau is an idiot. You lose".
    He was forced into a position [non-slavery] which was OBJECTIVELY freer than the one he was in [slavery] prior to being forced.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 01:54 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    You're saying that NOW; it is I who has brought out the different facets of the concept of freedom. Your own originallly narrow characterisation of 'freedom' as 'the removal of restrictions' has been shown to be inadequate.
    With power, you can remove restrictions. Thus, freedom comes with power.

    Oh dear! Aristotelian Logic has long been surpassed. Check out the POSSIBLE paradoxes of Quantum Mechanics!
    Life itself is full of paradoxes, but then one would need to be a philosopher to understand that!
    Saying someone is an "idiot" is no argument.
    Neither is dragging Quantum Mechanics into a discussion. A contradiction is a contradiction, no matter what scientific theories have to say about subatomic particles.

    He was forced into a postion [non-slavery] which was OBJECTIVELY freer than the one he was in [slavery] prior to being forced.
    Actually, freedom is the absence of restrictions - restrictions that limit you in living in accordance with your Self. Thus, if a Negro is born to be a slave, he can actually be 'free' in slavery.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 01:59 PM. Reason: updated thread

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    You're saying that NOW; it is I who has brought out the different facets of the concept of freedom. Your own originallly narrow characterisation of 'freedom' as 'the removal of restrictions' has been shown to be inadequate.
    Hardly.

    You wrote "freedom is not the power to do something" ('6 days ago at 18:01).
    Yes, that's what I said. Freedom to do something does not imply power. Freedom is a condition of existance, power is the capability to act. I'm 'free' to trade money for a t-shirt at a clothing store. Having If I were to live under a Government which prevented me from using money for buying that t-shirt, I would not be free to buy that t-shirt. However, the Government (wielding power) has permitted me to do that, so I have freedom as a benefit of power.

    Oh dear! Aristotelian Logic has long been surpassed. Check out the POSSIBLE paradoxes of Quantum Mechanics!
    Life itself is full of paradoxes, but then one would need to be a philosopher to understand that!
    Saying someone is an "idiot" is no argument.
    I don't see how Quantum Mechanics links in with freedom. Perhaps you could enlighten me. And Rousseau was an idiot, because being 'forced to be free' is a contradiction.

    He was forced into a postion [non-slavery] which was OBJECTIVELY freer than the one he was in [slavery] prior to being forced.
    The fact remains he was forced. Ensuring that force would not be applied to him either way he chose (whether to be his own master or not to be his own master) would have been true freedom for the Negro, not rhetoric intended to legitimise the use of force. Which is exactly what 'forced to be free' is.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 02:01 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried
    "A contradiction is a contradiction ...
    Actually, freedom is the absence of restrictions - restrictions that limit you in living in accordance with your Self.
    Thus, if a Negro is born to be a slave, he can actually be 'free' in slavery".
    And THAT is an example of a contradiction; or rather, a paradox.
    Life is full of contradictions, as philosophers and artists have always known; the actual experiments of modern physics have proven this to be true.
    So, a nationalist philosophy should not be afraid of so-called contradictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    ;"I don't see how Quantum Mechanics links in with freedom. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
    And Rousseau was an idiot, because being 'forced to be free' is a contradiction".
    Quantum mechanics has shown [as has modern physics in general] that the ancient 'Law of non-contradiction' is not universally true, and that 'contradictions' are therefore possible, and actual.
    This proves that contradictions are not always "idiotic".
    So when Siegfried says someone is 'free in slavery', as he does above, he is making the same paradoxical point as Rousseau.
    Also, look into Zeno's paradoxes for similar examples.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 02:06 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    And THAT is an example of a contradiction; or rather, a paradox.
    Life is full of contradictions, as philosophers and artists have always known; the actual experiments of modern physics have proven this to be true.
    It's not a contradiction I explained this earlier. I repeat: The fact remains he was forced. Ensuring that force would not be applied to him either way he chose (whether to be his own master or not to be his own master) would have been true freedom for the Negro, not rhetoric intended to legitimise the use of force. Which is exactly what 'forced to be free' is. Shove a gun in his face to make him do what you want him to do, not leaving him the option to decide for himself. That isn't freedom for the Negro.

    So, a nationalist philosophy should not be afraid of so-called contradictions.
    Please do explain how Quantum Mechanics shows contradictions to be possible. And to quote JJT from Stormfront (you brought QM up there):

    "Actually QM does not contradict itself, and contains no paradoxes - it only seems that way when you conceptualise it with inbuilt human physical intuition.

    But that's a short way of dealing with this which is essentially the reply of a smartarse. Technically, no, but in the blurry world of human thinking, yes. I do seriously wonder if QM could ever have been evolved any where except in Germany, and I do indeed think, yes, there is a historical link."
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 02:08 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post The Flat Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    "Please do explain how Quantum Mechanics shows contradictions to be possible. And to quote JJT from Stormfront ..."
    I am not asking you to take my [or JJT's (who?)] word for this.
    Check out Heisenberg's 'Uncertainty Principle', for example;
    http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~imamura/122/feb9/hup.html
    "We do not know if this indeterminism is actually the way the Universe works".
    http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00000635
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic

    The point is, any modern philosophy must take note of such discoveries.
    Nietzsche, for example, avidly read the science journals of his time - not because he was a scientist, but because he knew that such things have a bearing on a philosophy concerned with 'Macht'.

    Likewise, if a philosophy calling itself 'Freedom and Power' is to be more than a mere ideology, it must look at the complex notions of 'freedom' and 'power' as they are touched on in all spheres of intellectual endeavour.

    This means that the paradoxical nature of modern philosophical logic as well as the contradictions of modern physics must at least be acknowledged.
    Otherwise you are only writing as some kind of flat-earther who will brook no discussion - that is NOT philosophical.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 02:19 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    The term "Freedom"

    The term 'Freedom' makes me ill. It means nothing. It's a decontextualized absolute. We can be easily manipulated by it.
    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, December 20th, 2006 at 02:44 PM. Reason: merged thread

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    W.'s litany-like "they hate our freedoms" "analysis" after 9/11 was the climax of neo-democratic rhetoric "freedom" infantilism.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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    Would "absence of oppression" or "natural destiny" be better?

    (assuming you have a good working definition of what oppression is, in the first case)

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    I think "natural destiny" could describe the core aims of "freedom" as an abstract concept, but it would be difficult to foster under democratic rule; even aristocratic democratic rule would make it difficult.

    Are we really free, anyway? I think this is a Judeo-Christian belief that we have all this free will. Our ancestors taught us that our fate was fixed.

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