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Thread: Former Italian President Tells South Tyroleans that They Are Not Austrians

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    Re: Former Italian President tells South Tyroleans that they are not Austrians

    Austrians are racially, culturally and linguistially German and very closely related to the Bavarians and Swabians of southern Germany. What divides them is a political border.

    On the subject of the South Tirol those inhabitants are primarily German-speaking with many Italians living there as well. After W.W.1 this region was awarded to Italy and after Mussolini came to power he "Italianized" the area with large numbers of Italians from different regions of Italy in his effort to consolidate his northern border. This was deeply unpopular with the German-speaking residents who were forced to learn Italian in their schools and defer to Italian customs and laws. After the formal alliance between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany many Tyrolean National Socialists complained to the highest levels of the N.S.D.A.P. Remarkably Hitler chose not to intervene on the side of the South Tiroleans and backed-up Mussolini's claim to the area. The Tiroleans were given the option of staying in South Tirol and becoming Italianized citizens or moving to the Third Reich for resettlement. This the only case of the N.S.D.A.P. not defending a German minority in a foreign land who were being oppressed to benefit a strategic alliance with an ally. As a result many South Tyroleans became disallusioned with National Socialism and began a low-level insurgency against the Italian government which persisted even after W.W.2.

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    AW: Former Italian President tells South Tyroleans that they are not Austrians

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba View Post
    That's really a stupid assertion to make. Tyroleans have a long been linked to Austria.
    Well Vienna was once the center of classical music development, so yes you could say there is Austrian literature and music. How about Mozart?
    The "Austrianness" Cossiga was denying the national and cultural existence of has been one claimed and conceptualised as a quality opposing to Germandom and which is official ideology of today's "Republic of Austria". South Tyrol never has been part of this Austrianness because it was invented not before the 1930s by clericalist and communist traitors and was established and pushed through not before after World War II. Different than with South Tyrol the Austriakists never had great feelings of inclusion for the Sudeten Germans who are as much "Austrians" as the South Tyrolese. Regarding Mozart, in proper terms he even wasn't an Austrian because he came from what was in his time the archbishopric Salzburg and not from the archduchy Austria. Claims and praisings of his and his work's Germanness by him and generally of Germandom are much more frequent than such where he would assign his work to a specific Austrianness, not to speak of one which would be definied as antagonistic to German culture (that's not your idea, you stress it, but the quasi-offical Mozart ideology of today's ruling Austriakism.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peoples Observer View Post
    After the formal alliance between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany many Tyrolean National Socialists complained to the highest levels of the N.S.D.A.P. Remarkably Hitler chose not to intervene on the side of the South Tiroleans and backed-up Mussolini's claim to the area. The Tiroleans were given the option of staying in South Tirol and becoming Italianized citizens or moving to the Third Reich for resettlement. This the only case of the N.S.D.A.P. not defending a German minority in a foreign land who were being oppressed to benefit a strategic alliance with an ally. As a result many South Tyroleans became disallusioned with National Socialism and began a low-level insurgency against the Italian government which persisted even after W.W.2.
    One must mention here, however, that in 1943 Hitler finally "convinced" Mussolini of ceding South Tyrol to Germany.
    Last edited by Nordgau; Monday, December 25th, 2006 at 01:26 AM. Reason: Clarity.
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    Re: Former Italian President tells South Tyroleans that they are not Austrians

    Quote Originally Posted by Peoples Observer View Post
    After W.W.1 this region was awarded to Italy and after Mussolini came to power he "Italianized" the area with large numbers of Italians from different regions of Italy in his effort to consolidate his northern border.
    I cannot understand the insensitivity of uprooting Italians and plonking them into Southern Tirol. This reminds me of Stalin's dumping of Russian's into the Baltic States. Quite a cruel thing to do. If there is to be any movement of peoples, it should be to restore harmony and ethnic solidarity, not create walls of conflict.

    I feel that it is unwise not to recognise the more localised identities of different peoples, you risk collectivising people too much if you do this. You can make the central state too powerful.

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    Re: AW: Former Italian President tells South Tyroleans that they are n

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordgau View Post
    Regarding Mozart, in proper terms he even wasn't an Austrian because he came from what was in his time the archbishopric Salzburg and not from the archduchy Austria. Claims and praisings of his and his work's Germanness by him and generally of Germandom are much more frequent than such where he would assign his work to a specific Austrianness, not to speak of one which would be definied as antagonistic to German culture (that's not your idea, you stress it, but the quasi-offical Mozart ideology of today's ruling Austriakism.)
    Deja vu...

    First off all: Austrians are German (most of them, but that's another story).
    Second: Austrians are the better Germans.
    Die Intellektuellen von heute versuchen, den Nationalismus als eine Sünde gegen die Menschlichkeit zu brandmarken. Sie versuchen, uns glauben zu machen, daß dem Wort Nationalismus eine Infamie anhängt. Aber sie verkennen, daß der Geist des Nationalismus aus der schöpferischen Tiefe der menschlichen Seele stammt. Daß er aufsteigt von dort als das gewaltige Verlangen der Menschen, frei zu sein, frei von fremder Herrschaft, und sich nach eigener Art selber zu regieren! Herbert Hoover

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    Re: Former Italian President tells South Tyroleans that they are not A

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba View Post
    I never said otherwise per se. At the very most, if Austria is a seperate nation, it's still a Germanic nation.
    It is a country/state.

    Their Germanic heritage is not exactly the same as the one presented by Prussia,
    That's true, but this can also be said about Bavarians and Prussians, for example, yet both are part of the same German nation. In fact, one could say Bavarians have some things more in common with Austrians, than with Prussians. But these are historical and regional differences which can be found within practically any nation. The overall national identity still exists.

    so to simply assert they're not Austrians but Germans is rather simplistic IMO.
    Cossiga was speaking in terms of nation (i.e. people) when he said that "South Tyroleans are not Austrians", since he stated his opinion that "the idea of an Austrian nation was invented by Austrian fascists".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba View Post
    Dollfuss and his regime based the Austrian identity on a Germanic ethnic base. The Austrian identity to Dollfuss was built on the Catholic faith and the heritage of the Hasburg Empire(btw there were pan-Germanists who favoured a Germany united under the Hasburbs as opposed to under Prussia), as opposed to the Protestantism and anti-Catholicism of the Germany founded by Bismarck. Dollfuss never argued there was an ethnic difference between Germans and Austrians.
    But Dollfuss argued other things destructive to German unity and cooperation, like Austrian "superiority". According to Dollfuss and his ideology of "Austrofascism", Austrians were the "better Germans". He highlighted Austrian history and identity as distinct. He alienated Austrians and Germans. Dollfuss promoted separatism of Austrians and a model of fascism inspired from Italy. In a way he was a pawn of Mussolini's, because Mussolini was interested in Austria forming a buffer zone against National Socialist Germany.
    THINK! It's not illegal yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sissi View Post
    But Dollfuss argued other things destructive to German unity and cooperation, like Austrian "superiority". According to Dollfuss and his ideology of "Austrofascism", Austrians were the "better Germans". He highlighted Austrian history and identity as distinct. He alienated Austrians and Germans. Dollfuss promoted separatism of Austrians and a model of fascism inspired from Italy. In a way he was a pawn of Mussolini's, because Mussolini was interested in Austria forming a buffer zone against National Socialist Germany.
    Dollfuss was a traitor to the Germans of Austria. He was anti-NS.

    He formed an alliance with a non-Germanic country (Italy) and was inspired by Mussolini, the arch enemy of Austrians in general and Tyroleans in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soffio_di_wotan View Post
    Yes! I'm agree. But i would like add what not only Sud Tyrol is side of Osterreich but the Friaul Region too. Desafortunately it's forgot from many people.

    Friaul zum Osterreich !

    About Germans questions i have readed some original Ahnenerbe's and Gestapo's documents and Hans Gunther's original book where was wrote about germanisch Rasse and not white race.

    Hmm, I'm interested in learning about this region. How alive is the German identity there? I've found on Wikipedia that some German dialects are spoken there:

    German (Bavarian dialect) is spoken in Val Canale (mostly in Tarvisio and Pontebba); in some of Val Canale's municipalities (particularly in Malborghetto Valbruna). German-related dialects are spoken in several ancient enclaves like Timau, Zahre (Sauris) and Plodn (Sappada).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli

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    They Should .........

    The EU should let Sued-Tirol become an independent nation like Switzerland.

    The South Tyrolese have been totally forgotten, abandoned and betrayed by almost all Germans, including the Austrians.

    Everyone from the Third Reich down to the present German Nationalists seem more concerned with their relations with Italy than liberty for the South Tyrolese.

    They do get some semi-autonomy but still not freedom.

    I really don't understand why there is not the concern to help them or the energy to support them.

    Hitler was supposed to be protector and guarantor of oppressed Germans.
    He did certainly help the Germans in Eastern Europe under the Slavic dominion.
    And he helped the Alsatians under French dominion. And even the Nord-Schleswigers under Danish control.

    The Italians want to be on great relations with all Germans EXCEPT the South Tyroleans. This is hypocricy.

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    Man makes borders and boundries ,the blood in ones veins cannot be changed .if a Chinaman is living in Norway does that make him a Viking? NOT!

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