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Thread: Modern War: A Racial Tragedy. The German Example

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    I'm sorry but i have yet to see any evidence. I think nobody is going to deny your enormous knowledge and everlasting calmness in making some statements and explanations over and over again. But i don't find it believable and i neither see it matching with the reality.

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    I made a big answer, but then a mistake what made things rather uncomfortable (data lost!) for me so I write now just a short answer...

    About the constitutional variants this thread is sufficient:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=8778

    What you can see if you look at the average Leptosomic and Pyknic faces of the women in the images below is, that though they are mixed, if you morph them together to the average face of an Leptomorphic the appearance is definitely more nordiform than on the Pyknic side, whats the point.

    My basic arguments are that I assume (because of other writings too of course) that there is a correlation between progressive racial features with intelligence, beauty and health are a general indicator for average intelligence levels too. About the body height etc. relations I will write below. Furthermore there is a correlation between leptomorphic body build and schizothyme temperament, basically following Kretschmer, Conrad and Sheldon.

    More gracile features (like less coarse joints and supraorbitalis) are more often positively correlated to success in school and higher intelligence. The only exception seems to be a well defined chin-jaw region (Knußmann: 1996). Its well known that extremely masculine and aggressive males are less successful in school and on average less intelligent (f.e. Eibl-Eibesfeldt: 1995).
    Whats a proven correlation at least inside a population is the height-intelligence correlation. Taller individuals are also more often social climbers and the associated job categories have usually a higher intelligence level. Though we have various models of explanation from perception of the environment, to generally healthier condition etc. (Knußmann: 1996, see img. below).



    There is also a proven tendency if its about the correlation between head circumference, brain size and intelligence (Lynn, Rushton, Knußmann etc.), which would be favourable for Nordoids and unreduced Cromagnids again.

    As for the extreme and small pyknomorphic category, like in the Kretschmer/Sheldon thread further explained, their is a correlation between child-like infantile growth and behaviour, whereas in (again typical) leptomorphic individuals a juvenile or mature tendency of more typical human growth is visible and associated behaviour with more control of emotions and behaviour on average (Heberer/Schwidetzky 1970, Knußmann 1996).

    As for other physical correlations there is this thread:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=37644

    Brain and body size ratio:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=24293

    Sexual selection, intelligence and beauty:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=11152
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=13692
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=12843

    General evolutionary and race questions:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=38063
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=27109
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=35814

    As for the evolutionary tendencies, whats clear is that the extreme infantilisation and brachycephalisation in Europe is a rather recent phenomenon with its peak (so far) in the medieval age because of reasons I explained in the various other posts. This correlation is practically proven because there is no other sufficient explanation and the archaeological record is clear, especially in the morbile warrior groups which consisted almost exclusively out of leptomorphic and robust longheads or robust akromegaloid shortheads in later times (Taurid, Dinaroid), but never out of reduced, infantile individuals.

    The change of the LBI can be shown f.e. for Bavaria with the changes in more active, mobile times and in stable, sedentary, but hungry and often sick farmer societies in which just more children - and getting them through - means selective advantage:


    What we see in the archaeological record is an absolute dominance of progressive-lepto-mesomorphic types in the upper class of almost every mobile group in the past, from the Celts, Germanics to the Slavs.

    To show some of the most extreme differences in European-Europid specialisation if its about sports:

    I think the mobile physique and mind is obviously more correlated with one extreme...

    I strongly recommend reading this article too:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=307505
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    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, August 19th, 2005 at 04:55 PM.
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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    More gracile features (like less coarse joints and supraorbitalis) are more often positively correlated to success in school and higher intelligence.
    More often positively correlated? That's equivalent to saying no study has been done, but I want you to think otherwise.

    I assume that gracile Cro-Magnids are the exception, as only gracile Capellids can be successful, right? The little-tiny Scando-Nordids will always do better than the little-tiny Alpinids, right? Or is that just because they're leptomorphic? No, no, and no. But if so, then why does it matter if they're gracile?

    And then you say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    This correlation is practically proven because there is no other sufficient explanation and the archaeological record is clear, especially in the morbile warrior groups which consisted almost exclusively out of leptomorphic and robust longheads or robust akromegaloid shortheads in later times (Taurid, Dinaroid), but never out of reduced, infantile individuals.
    Especially in the mobile warrior groups?

    They've gone from being herder people to herder/warrior people, and are now simply warrior people. Who are these people anyway? In what archaeological record?

    Who are they herdering/warrioring against? You'd think this would matter. Proof of fight, proof of victory?

    And the world of herder-herder/warrior-warrior people is the only world ever? Let's all go Arab then!

    Nobody denies that very reduced, infantile individuals are pretty much worthless, but you keep trying to throw pyknomorphic into the mix, probably because Borrebies make certain people feel small. Bad science.

    Yet you still make no mention of reduced, infantile Nordids and Mediterranids, which are more common than reduced, infantile Alpinids and Baltids.

    The effect you are trying to achieve by this omission is interesting.
    Last edited by Edwin; Friday, August 19th, 2005 at 08:02 PM.

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett
    More often positively correlated? That's equivalent to saying no study has been done, but I want you to think otherwise.
    Its written in a anthropological standard work and mentioned in many articles and studies, but if you can prove the opposite, you are welcomed.

    I assume that gracile Cro-Magnids are the exception, as only gracile Capellids can be successful, right?
    "Gracile" in that sense means NOT COARSE, and goes for both Cromagnids and Capellid forms, which borderline isnt that clear anyway as Glen and I already stated.


    The little-tiny Scando-Nordids will always do better than the little-tiny Alpinids, right? Or is that just because they're leptomorphic?
    They are more often sinewy leptosomic more often than other types which is, as Ludovici correctly said, the standard efficient and progressive type. The sinewy Leptosomic type is neither gracile nor robust, be intermediate and leptomorphic in the Nordid type.

    They've gone from being herder people to herder/warrior people, and are now simply warrior people. Who are these people anyway? In what archaeological record?
    Corded Ware people, Bronze Age of Central-Northern Europe in particular, but basically in almost all European and West Asian areas, Hallstatt population, especially upper class, Early La Tene population, especially upper class, Germanic Reihengraeber, especially early, early Slavs especially upper class. I read it, I even saw skulls, you?

    Who are they herdering/warrioring against? You'd think this would matter. Proof of fight, proof of victory?
    If a type in the group competition is successful, this type will spread and will further compete under its own which leads to further specialisation in the same direction. The maximum, the maximum of human evolution so far was reached in the Corded Ware people.

    And the world of herder-herder/warrior-warrior people is the only world ever? Let's all go Arab then!
    Weren't Semits (the real ones, the Orientalids) successful? Didnt they spread their language and culture too? Didnt they formed empires too? They are just made for the Arabic peninsula and didnt reached the same peak, but they are progressive either, no doubt.

    Nobody denies that very reduced, infantile individuals are pretty much worthless, but you keep trying to throw pyknomorphic into the mix, probably because Borrebies make certain people feel small. Bad science.
    I didnt say they are worthless nor did I say being pyknomorphic is that bad, I simply said the core type, the backbone and more important variant is the progressive longskulled meso-/leptomorphic Cromagnid/Nordoid, thats all.

    Yet you still make no mention of reduced, infantile Nordids and Mediterranids, which are more common than reduced, infantile Alpinids and Baltids.
    Infantile Nordids? Neotenic features are not always bad if balanced, whats finally the point.

    I posted that elsewhere, should be enough:
    There is a difference between active and passive adaptation with the 1st meaning to win because of generalised higher evolution and the 2nd means just adaptation to the environment in question.
    Both can lead to progressive developments, but usually only what can be count as 1 is progressive.

    You could argue that Australopithecus robustus was more "progressive" than afarensis, going after your definition, but in fact, he was just a dead end and if a human would have been able to go through time and watch him at the beginning, it would have been clear.
    So his specialisation was rather degeneration, like the Panda bear has some new features but is finally not as versatile as the black bear.

    So progressive means higher anagenetic development, but staying generalised, having a high potential in all directions, being versatile.
    Only those versatile and generally advantageous features are considered progressive by me and many other anthropologists, whereas pure climatic adaptation is just "diversity" without value or often, if too extreme and obstructive for later developments (overspecialisation) is degeneration.
    For various reasons self-domestication of humans had a mostly degenerative character and paedomorphism is the old regression we see already in floriensis and African Bambutids, its just adaptation to meagreness.

    Whats progressive can be objectively measured if groups of the same climate come together in a time in which GROUP SELECTION took place and which won "the competition". This times were for Europe the Mesolithicum but the Neolithicum and Bronze Age too. At this time, you see what progressive types dominated elites, the best regions, were advantegous and formed higher culture. Even in modern times you can see whos more often in the elite, active scientist, soldier, sportsmen, model etc. and which groups are more common in such peak variants.
    The reasons for Brachycephalisation are not always the same, you can read it in the respective thread.

    Until self domestication, to answer your body question, it was always like that: Yes, humans kept infantile-neotenic features, in fact thats progressive, but now whats the problem? The problem is it is now happening in many types, but that which are usually called paedomorphic/infantile ARE NOT BALANCED, THEY LOST THEIR ADULT AND MASCULINE BODY, THEY LOST PHYSICAL POTENTIAL and their behaviour might have been influenced as well.
    So what they lack are the balanced neotenic development, which is something that needs a very long time and is especially then positive if its correlated with higher intelligence and advanced behaviour, whats not the case either. They are just FAST ADAPTATIONS to extreme and poor tropical climate or to general meagreness conditions, something which is not favourable for human evolution and never was.
    Sapiens had a better structure, adult body too and the adult headform was kept too, just certain features were kept neotenic, it was NOT JUST neotenisaton, that was balanced, todays paedomorphics aren't, they are hormonal dwarfs in extreme tropical heat and meagreness, but not more balanced than the progressive types.

    Here some quotes and further explanations from my side, I brought them in on Dodona:

    "Very clear is the connection of races to the ontogenetic development: There are races, which retain the more childlike (paedomorphen) habitus (f.e. Palaemongolids, img 308 - look at the pictures posted in the phy. anthro. section from Knußmann), and such, which are more typical adult formed - or even overreaching (f.e. Nilotids, img 304).

    "The protuberance of the mucous membrane (lips) of Negrids is a phylogenetically progressive, whereas the strong prognathy is an archaic (primitive) feature."

    Knußmann (see below) S. 407.

    If its about intelligence difference, we have Lynn, Rushton, Herrnstein, Murray to look for the intellectual background of the various types.

    For psychological differences the works of Cattel, Kretschmer, Sheldon, Eysenck, Rohracher, v. Eickstedt etc. are a must from my point of view.

    "Highly specialised organisms or organs are being designated as phylogenetically progressive. Phylogenetic primitivity is the retaining of original, undifferentiated features. (very rough The (theoretical of primitivity) advantage is the potential for further specialisation in more directions..."
    - means: Primitives can develop, Progressives already developed. If there new development if advantageous, there form is it. Now my point is not everything new is progressive, insofar I use it like Eickstedt and Lundman, because only advantageous and versatile features are progressive, too one sided overspecialised (took further potential).

    "Original ("ancestral") features are also called plesiomorphies, specialised "derived" as apomorphies.

    Knußmann, Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen, 2nd edition 1996, S. 268-269.

    Knußmann is an antiracist, Seidler even an "there is no race" guy, they both interpret certain data one sided and dismiss certain correlations, but on the other hand they are usually relatively honest if its about the concrete descriptions and data.

    Neomorphic are new traits, yes, but if reduced and infantilised they are paedomorphic, so progressive means further differentiated but unreduced - adult variant.

    So:
    Paedomorphic = ontogenetically stagnation - no adult form - such features can be combined (f.e. Palaemongolid, Negritid etc.)
    Progressive = neomorphic features without strictly paedomorphic character, for the type it means neomorphic adult form (f.e. Nordid, Dinarid, Silvid, Nordsinid).
    Primitive features are phylogentic old, adult form in type (f.e. Australid, Malid, Fuegid etc.)
    Thats generally accepted.
    What I just add is that the neomorphic features should be versatile - means not disadvantage generally outside of the niche in which it came up. So whereas depigmentation is generally a progressive trait and good for a region, its not necessarily that progressive in my scheme because its not "worldwide advantageous" for itself, even if its about herder-warriors or modern society. So if a group would get by chance a third arm, useless, just investment and ugly, for sure thats new, but I wouldnt consider it progressive, similar to many other more reasonable anthropologists, but some sort of degeneration even if its "new".
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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    An infantile Nordid has a different look from an infantile Alpinid, but it is the look of the Alpinid which you focus on. An infantile Nordid simply looks more gracile, as the face is still relatively longer. Different animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Corded Ware people, Bronze Age of Central-Northern Europe in particular, but basically in almost all European and West Asian areas, Hallstatt population, especially upper class, Early La Tene population, especially upper class, Germanic Reihengraeber, especially early, early Slavs especially upper class. I read it, I even saw skulls, you?
    I know which peoples in the record you were referring to, but was disputing your assessment of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    "Gracile" in that sense means NOT COARSE, and goes for both Cromagnids and Capellid forms, which borderline isnt that clear anyway as Glen and I already stated.
    But you didn't say that. And precisely how does the coarseness of Borrebies affect their intelligence? Don't they have the largest brains of us all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    The maximum, the maximum of human evolution so far was reached in the Corded Ware people.
    According to whom? Perhaps in the evolution of the Capellid.

    One could argue that the Borreby is the most evolved Cro-Magnid, as it is the most independent.
    Last edited by Edwin; Friday, August 19th, 2005 at 09:27 PM.

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    And precisely how does the coarseness of Borrebies affect their intelligence? Don't they have the largest brains of us all?
    In fact I dont know of how Borreby like types are doing, they are a minority anyway, however, they should be more on the viscoes side of temperament at least on average.

    As for the Corded Ware, just read that:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=37593

    Both Corded and Kurgan basic type are progressive, Corded is just more specialised and has various more developed features, Kurgan has advantages too, mainly higher bone robustness (without coarseness).

    Robust warrior type...I liked "Kurgan" in Highlander, he was rangy but robust, strong bones and muscles but still rather progressive feature combination, probably with the exception of supraorbitalis.
    http://missspooky.free.fr/mswfilm/Hi...urgan_page.htm


    Austrvegr posted various Russian examples of just slightly gracialised Eastnordid/Cromagnid types. Whereas Nordoid and Cromagnoid (unreduced, meso-/dolichocephalic) is a unity to some degree, mainly for warmer and colder climate, Alpinisation is a deviating tendency caused mainly by bad conditions and self-domestication. The tendency is therefore negative, the individual can be positive with a progressive feature combinations. There were already examples in this thread.

    According to whom?
    Its simple - list of progressive features, they have the most points. Borrebies aren't negative just not as positive as Cordeds are.

    Neolithic types, in a time agriculture was new, people constantly moved usually, fight and war were common, small-medium groups (for European conditions) and strong group selection.

    http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.p...5&d=1123152513

    Real Alpinids are still a rarity, Dinaroid types occur, progressive dolichocephalic-leptomorphic types advance in all directions, the more primitive dolichomorphics were selected out.

    Relations of the various Neolithic groups:
    http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.p...3&d=1123152408

    The Hügelgräber are very interesting, because in the Hügelgräber mostly elite members, most of them warriors, were buried.
    This is a typical skull (with trepanations) from warrior Hügelgrab (cairn):

    This skull is quite representative for the Celtic elite, the type which dominated in Western/Central Europe after the "Corded explosion" and is mostly Nordid if its about the type.

    Small site in German:
    http://www.adelsdorf.de/freizeit___t...keiten/132.asp

    Celtic cairn from Hochdorf an der Enz:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, August 19th, 2005 at 10:06 PM.
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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    It's hardly fair of you to explain away Borrebies as a minority, when Corded individuals and approximations are equally rare.

    Further, Borrebies are fully Cro-Magnid, while Cordeds are Capellid benefitting from Cro-Magnid admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Its simple - list of progressive features, they have the most points. Borrebies aren't negative just not as positive as Cordeds are.
    This statement is terribly flawed, as you are comparing Cro-Magnids with Capellids

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    Cordeds were the Nordid peak, other Nordids follow closely. Borreby is a (brachycephalised) deviation. They lack just the body and personality type more mobile variants had. They are good farmers, maybe fishers and a stable population element, but not as expansive, flexible, creative and dynamic as the leptomorphic groups.
    Tell me how many Borrebies you find all over Europe at any time and especially in mobile warrior group elites...
    Nordoid, tall-robust Mediterranids, but standard Mediterranids also and leptomorphised Cromagnids are the rule, Dinaroids occur, mostly later though, brachycephalised broad skulled very seldom, infantile types go down to such a low percentage in Neolithic to Iron Age Europe...

    Corded influenced many groups, but watered down their blood, the closest element is the standard Nordid (often with Dalofaelid/Cromagnid admixture) type which dominated in all Kentum IE elites.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, August 19th, 2005 at 10:18 PM.
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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    1.75 cm height,and my body build would be considered very strong. It is very easy for me to build muscles.

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    Post Re: Modern War - a racial tragedy - the German example

    Quote Originally Posted by Josep Conrad
    1.75 cm height,and my body build would be considered very strong. It is very easy for me to build muscles.
    Seems to be Mesosomic.
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