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Thread: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

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    Post Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    I read an article recently where an anthropologist claims that Orthognathicism is the result of man's discovery of fire. The anthropologist makes justifies this claim by saying that people living in the tropics discovered fire much later and therefore have higher incidences of prognathicism.

    This in fact makes perfect sense concerning Negroids and Australoids. But is somewhat puzzling when you consider Mongloids.


    If so can one assume that Caucasians have been making use of fire for the longest period of time since Caucasians are the most Orthognathic?

    What puzzles me is why Mongoloids aren't as Orthognathic as Caucasians since it would only seem natural that a group that had evolved in extreme cold would make use of fire earlier.

    Is the prognathism in Mongoloids the result of Australoid admixture? In the Mongoloid group South East Asians and Tungids are Prognathic while Sinids are generally mesognathic.

    I've seen some East Asians who were as Orthnogathic as the average Caucasian but they seem to be few in comparison with the East Asian norm which is mesognathism.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    I read an article recently where an anthropologist claims that Orthognathicism is the result of man's discovery of fire. The anthropologist makes justifies this claim by saying that people living in the tropics discovered fire much later and therefore have higher incidences of prognathicism.

    This in fact makes perfect sense concerning Negroids and Australoids. But is somewhat puzzling when you consider Mongloids.


    If so can one assume that Caucasians have been making use of fire for the longest period of time since Caucasians are the most Orthognathic?

    What puzzles me is why Mongoloids aren't as Orthognathic as Caucasians since it would only seem natural that a group that had evolved in extreme cold would make use of fire earlier.

    Is the prognathism in Mongoloids the result of Australoid admixture? In the Mongoloid group South East Asians and Tungids are Prognathic while Sinids are generally mesognathic.

    I've seen some East Asians who were as Orthnogathic as the average Caucasian but they seem to be few in comparison with the East Asian norm which is mesognathism.
    Orthognathism is a probably a phylogenetic marker of neanderthaloid admixture.

    It doesnt explain its evolution in certain populations, though prognathism is archaic relative to an orthognathic profile.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Its no Neandertal trait and thats for sure because even the most progressive Neandertals were not more orthognathic than the first primitive sapiens groups which would have been mixtures after this theory.

    However, orthognathy has many advantages, but its true that a certain influence comes from nutrition and how you make your meal.
    People which eat raw meat in the Northern areas have usually bigger teeth, more often shovelled and with Alveolarprognathy, not to forget with stronger masseters too, like the Eskimids, the Sibirids and partly the Sinids, thats a adaption to this way of life especially during the LGM or in the arctic zone of today.
    But, and thats interesting, those people still dont have real racial prognathy but maximal a certain grade of Alveolarprognathy which is not the same. So the change of the braincase to the facial area and the position of the head together with more paedomorphic-neotenic features seem to constantly promote more extreme orthognathy and different face-braincase position if selection is stronger as it was the case if you compare Eurasia with the tropical world.
    In earlier times stronger teeth, masseters and jaws were generally more important, thats true and depends strongly on nutrition and how you eat your food, like I said.
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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Its no Neandertal trait and thats for sure because even the most progressive Neandertals were not more orthognathic than the first primitive sapiens groups which would have been mixtures after this theory.
    One recent study found that the alveolar prominence in neanderthaloids and early UP modrens was a similar degree, but I only saw the abstract, so I cant quote the results, Agrippa.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Orthognathism is a probably a phylogenetic marker of neanderthaloid admixture.

    It doesnt explain its evolution in certain populations, though prognathism is archaic relative to an orthognathic profile.
    Don't Neartherthals exhibit midfacial prognathism? Modern Caucasians don't.

    I think it more likely Europeans derive there Orthoganthism from Cro-Magnons.
    In general I think Europeans have a lot more anatomical affinities with Cro-Magnons than Neaderthals.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Don't Neartherthals exhibit midfacial prognathism? Modern Caucasians don't.

    I think it more likely Europeans derive there Orthoganthism from Cro-Magnons.
    In general I think Europeans have a lot more anatomical affinities with Cro-Magnons than Neaderthals.
    Thats obvious, the real question is was there a Neandertal influence in the Cro-Magnons and Capellids/Bruennids in particular and how big was the impact if.
    I dont see convincing proofs for significant Neandertal admixture at all, so even if it happened, its not responsible for such modern traits but rather the result of later selection.
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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Its no Neandertal trait and thats for sure because even the most progressive Neandertals were not more orthognathic than the first primitive sapiens groups which would have been mixtures after this theory.

    However, orthognathy has many advantages, but its true that a certain influence comes from nutrition and how you make your meal.
    People which eat raw meat in the Northern areas have usually bigger teeth, more often shovelled and with Alveolarprognathy, not to forget with stronger masseters too, like the Eskimids, the Sibirids and partly the Sinids, thats a adaption to this way of life especially during the LGM or in the arctic zone of today.
    But, and thats interesting, those people still dont have real racial prognathy but maximal a certain grade of Alveolarprognathy which is not the same. So the change of the braincase to the facial area and the position of the head together with more paedomorphic-neotenic features seem to constantly promote more extreme orthognathy and different face-braincase position if selection is stronger as it was the case if you compare Eurasia with the tropical world.
    In earlier times stronger teeth, masseters and jaws were generally more important, thats true and depends strongly on nutrition and how you eat your food, like I said.
    What's the difference between Alveolarprognathy and the form of prognathism found in Negroids and Australoids?

    Interestingly for whatever reasons dietary or otherwise humans are moving in an Orthognathic direction. Wasn't prognathism much more prevelant in ancient Nordics as opposed to Modern Nordics?

    Yeah shoveled incisors seemsto be a mongoloid trait but I have heard this trait is also very common in Swedes...would you know the reason or can you at least speculate to as why there is this correlation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Thats obvious, the real question is was there a Neandertal influence in the Cro-Magnons and Capellids/Bruennids in particular and how big was the impact if.
    I dont see convincing proofs for significant Neandertal admixture at all, so even if it happened, its not responsible for such modern traits but rather the result of later selection.
    Yes that and the fact Scientists found Neatherthal Y haploid lineages and mtDNA are absent from the Modern European gene pool.
    Last edited by Northern Paladin; Thursday, August 4th, 2005 at 09:31 PM.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Don't Neartherthals exhibit midfacial prognathism? Modern Caucasians don't.
    Midfacial prominenence is also inherited by Caucasoids, but shouldnt be confused with alveolar ptognthism (of the jaws).

    I dont suggest that modren Caucasoids are closer to neanderthaloids than to Uper Paleolithic modren populations. I only suggest there is evidence for regional continuity.

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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    What's the difference between Alveolarprognathy and the form of prognathism found in Negroids and Australoids?
    Whereas the fully facial prognathism leads to a prominent total face, usually with a negative chin, Alveolarprognathy looks like just the teeth region and the bones in which the teeth rest are prominent (typical Japanese-East Asian caricature). So its an adaptation exclusively for the teeth and the teeth are more prominent, more often occur orthodonthic problems. Its like the whole face was going back but this part was still too strong to be reduced in the same way. In Australids the whole face is still prominent.

    Interestingly for whatever reasons dietary or otherwise humans are moving in an Orthognathic direction. Wasn't prognathism much more prevelant in ancient Nordics as opposed to Modern Nordics?
    Many Europid types showed at least mesognathy and alveolarprognathism, especially the extreme dolichocephalic and extreme boreal-infantile types (East Baltid has nowadays the highest rate). In the early Germanic Reihengraeber which are typically Nordid a higher frequency of a tendency to Alveolarprognathism or at least orthodontic problems is obvious - most likely just related to the extreme leptomorphic type (less facial muscles and more orthodontic problems are more typical for Leptosomics), but thats structural not the same as full facial prognathy nor real Alveolarprognathy with stronger teeth.

    Yeah shoveled incisors seemsto be a mongoloid trait but I have heard this trait is also very common in Swedes...would you know the reason or can you at least speculate to as why there is this correlation.
    I never heard that it is common in Sweden, but Lappids are mixed and cold adapted, therefore they could show a higher frequency which in turn, because in Sweden is Lappid admixture, could lead to a higher frequency of shoveled incisors. Do you have some sources?
    It seems to me a cold adaptation, if you eat much raw meat - could be secondary adaptation of Europid types. In my opinion if you would let Europids live in such an area like Greenland during a cold periode, people must eat raw meat and stronger teeth are advantageous, so they could be selected out of a very low frequency - that was one of the reason Eskimids survived Nordids on Greenland in the middle ages...
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    Post Re: Fire Responsible For Orthognathicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    I never heard that it is common in Sweden, but Lappids are mixed and cold adapted, therefore they could show a higher frequency which in turn, because in Sweden is Lappid admixture, could lead to a higher frequency of shoveled incisors. Do you have some sources?
    It seems to me a cold adaptation, if you eat much raw meat - could be secondary adaptation of Europid types. In my opinion if you would let Europids live in such an area like Greenland during a cold periode, people must eat raw meat and stronger teeth are advantageous, so they could be selected out of a very low frequency - that was one of the reason Eskimids survived Nordids on Greenland in the middle ages...
    http://www.polaris.nova.edu/~alford/.../multcult.html

    I got this from searching on Yahoo "Swedes Shovel shaped incisors". I remember I saw a website where it listed the actualy prevelance of shovel shaped incisors in Swedes and it was 20% but that was a long time ago.

    Anyways I'm sure there are more articles on this subject out there. If I find one I will post it.

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