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Thread: Are the Ainu Caucasoid?

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    Question Are the Ainu Caucasoid?

    How do you classify them ?
    Are they part of the caucasoid typ or they belong to the mongoloid typ ?
    Last edited by SS Charlemagne; Saturday, December 18th, 2004 at 01:41 PM.
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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    They are Ainuid. Genetically cluster with Mongoloids.
    There are much more than just three basic races.

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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    All are Ainuids of course, and Ainuids by themselves are in my opinion a branch of the more or less Cromagnoid population of many parts of Eurasia which developed in different races later.

    Its really obvious how this type influenced the Japanese to some extend and similar types other regions of East and South East Asia.

    I think its possible to see certain relations to Weddids and Indianids.
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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    All are Ainuids of course, and Ainuids by themselves are in my opinion a branch of the more or less Cromagnoid population of many parts of Eurasia which developed in different races later.

    Its really obvious how this type influenced the Japanese to some extend and similar types other regions of East and South East Asia.

    I think its possible to see certain relations to Weddids and Indianids.
    Why do you say Indian populations, Agrippa? The Veddids are located a bit far away today.

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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    I was speaking about my first impression which is that there might be certain morphological similarities. The Eastern Weddid type can be found in different parts of South East Asia with the tendency to get more progressive and typically somewhat "Protomongoloid" if going North.

    I think that there could have been a common Homo sapiens strata partly of a Cromagnid and partly of an Australoid character in all of Southern and Eastern Asia.
    Some developed further away, most in a Europoid (West) or Mongoloid (East) direction, some others are still relatively unchanged or in between.
    Ainuids are just of that kind, so are certain Weddoid and Indianid groups.
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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Why do you say Indian populations, Agrippa? The Veddids are located a bit far away today.
    He says it because of this: The two beach comber lineages.. which basically matches Agrippa's analysis based simply on looks.


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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    I was speaking about my first impression which is that there might be certain morphological similarities. The Eastern Weddid type can be found in different parts of South East Asia with the tendency to get more progressive and typically somewhat "Protomongoloid" if going North.

    I think that there could have been a common Homo sapiens strata partly of a Cromagnid and partly of an Australoid character in all of Southern and Eastern Asia.
    Some developed further away, most in a Europoid (West) or Mongoloid (East) direction, some others are still relatively unchanged or in between.
    Ainuids are just of that kind, so are certain Weddoid and Indianid groups.
    You're analysis roughly fits the lineage and migration tracings in Y-chromosome and mtDNA studies.

    All three of the father Y-chromosome lineages (Yap, RPS4Y/M130, M89) and all two of the mother mtDNA lineages (M, N) start off in the same area (Middle East/India.. "Eurasian Garden of Eden").

    Yap and M130 are the beach comber lineages that did not gain populations of mass and are today mainly found in periphery populations in Oceania, eastern Asia, and North America.

    M89 is the mother lineage that gave rise to basically all of the populations outside of Africa, because they were adapted to hunting inland and thus gained populations of mass. Here is a rough scheme of M89 expansion, and I've already posted Yap and M130 expansion in the previous post. Genetic tracing isn't that precise, yet.

    One part of it's M9 descendent went northwards to give rise to M45 in Siberia, which produced a branch (M173) that went westwards and is associated with Cro-Magnons in Europe. But prior to this, an M89 branch (M170) went from the Middle East ("Eurasian Garden of Eden") into the southern coasts of Europe. Thus, Paleolithic Europe resulted from the converging of two separate populations. After the last glaciation maximum, there was the neolithic expansion from the Middle East, and at the same time an expansion from northwestern Central Asia/southeastern Europe (R1a/M17 associated with Indo-European and R1b/M269).

    Ideally, this should roughly match the fossil record, and even elucidate some fuzzy areas.

    EDIT/CORRECTION: M89 derived lineage on the coast is not M173 from M45 in Siberia. I did a typo. M89 derived coastal lineage is M170 something I can't remember. Edit 2: Just checked.. It's M170 derived from M89 from the Middle East before the neolithic. It's one of two founding members of the the pre-neolithic and pre-Kurgan expansion Europid.
    Last edited by Test; Saturday, December 18th, 2004 at 11:08 PM.

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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    I was speaking about my first impression which is that there might be certain morphological similarities. The Eastern Weddid type can be found in different parts of South East Asia with the tendency to get more progressive and typically somewhat "Protomongoloid" if going North.

    I think that there could have been a common Homo sapiens strata partly of a Cromagnid and partly of an Australoid character in all of Southern and Eastern Asia.
    Some developed further away, most in a Europoid (West) or Mongoloid (East) direction, some others are still relatively unchanged or in between.
    Ainuids are just of that kind, so are certain Weddoid and Indianid groups.
    How close together are the western and eastern Weddids? Before the Malayid and Caucasoid expansions in the Indotropical region, there was morphological diversity as there was in the Afrotropics before the Bantu expansions. The distinct Munda type, Veddids and Negritids are part of this earlier diversity, and so are the Sahul types and the extreme South Americans, who arrived from the Old World tropics. Theres a lot of difference between all these populations, so thats why Im asking this.

    I agree with you about the admixture of Palearctic and Indotropical types in east Asia, but in most of the Indotropics, I dont think there was much of a Palearctic element.

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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    The distinct Munda type, Veddids and Negritids are part of this earlier diversity, and so are the Sahul types
    -The Munda is an ethno-linguistic group, not a racial group. They are a racially mixed type, probably (I haven't looked at anything genetically), because they are less Veddoid/Sudroid than some of the southern Indian aboriginals and Dravidians. The Munda seems to have a north "Indianid"/Dravidian component and possibly a northern East Asiatic component. This is a possibility since NE India was only penetrated by Indians in the last two centuries and before was the meeting point of Veddoids and Mongoloids. The Munda also speak an Austroasiatic language, so there is a clue right there.
    -The pure Veddoid/Sudroid type resembles very much the modern Australoids/Australian aboriginals and slightly Papuans.
    -The rest of SE Asia were inhabited by negritos, who in there pure unadmixed form (as seen in old photos) are almost indistinguishable from African pygmies.
    -It's really hard to infer whether the differences are a result of separate migrations from Middle East or there was later differentiation, but that's a good possibility. M130 in India and Australia and Papua and the phenotype of some Ainus point to an Australoid phenotype.
    -The Papuans might be an admixture (genetically atleast) of the negritos and australoids.
    I agree with you about the admixture of Palearctic and Indotropical types in east Asia, but in most of the Indotropics, I dont think there was much of a Palearctic element.
    He's assuming that the "Malayids" you talk about had a more northerly origin, which agrees with the genetic data and the archeological data. They correspond to the less specialized central-eastern China neolithic type fossil-wise and cultural/archeological wise.
    I question your use of "Malayid" also, since many fringe groups in SW and SE China and northern SE Asia and Tibet look this way, not to mention many Amerind. They are just semi paleo-Mongoloids. And even disregarding that, the true "Malayid" type is found in Taiwan anyway, not in Malaysia. The "Malay", like the Munda, is also an ethno-linguistic group, not a racial group. It would be like referring to a people as Germanids.
    Last edited by Test; Saturday, December 18th, 2004 at 10:08 PM.

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    Post Re: Classify Ainu People

    Quote Originally Posted by SS Charlemagne
    How do you classify them ?
    Are they part of the caucasoid typ or they belong to the mongoloid typ ?

    They are not by any chance caucasoid ....

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