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Thread: Belgian "Subnordics"

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    Post Belgian "Subnordics"

    Considering the problem of the racial character of the inhabitants of
    the Flemish marshlands, C.S.Coon in TROE states that "the swampy
    shores were apparently the home of a southwestern extension of the
    Danish Borreby people, who merged with Alpines in the highlands, and
    who, on their own marshes, maintained their racial identity in
    isolated spots until almost modern times."

    Both Flemings and Walloons are moderately thick-set in bodily build
    with broad shoulders great relative sitting height and arms which are
    not long.
    In every other sense they comply to Montandon's Subnordic appelation,
    insofar that I re-interpret the data in favour of identifying as by
    nature a mixomorphic racial type between Nordic and Plau, possible
    quite unadultered survival of the mesolithic Dobbertiner population
    or at least a distant blend; Louis Bolk in an article for the
    Nederlandsche Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde(1921) sketches in short
    the anthropological history of the Netherlands and finds out that the
    majority of the Dutch are Nordics and Alpines(like the Belgians), the
    latter constituting the oldest inhabitants, mainly aiming for the
    coast and river boards, while the Frisians would have initiated a
    rather tardive Nordic infiltration from the north. Brachycephaly is
    commonest in East Limburg, Zuid-Beveland and the Saxon provinces;
    there might be a faint strain of East Baltic traits in the population
    of the Netherlands, but since the Saxons settled in the Netherlands
    before any contacts with the Slavs along the Elbe, it's safe to say
    the roundheaded condition harks back to NW Alpines and brachoid
    Faelians.
    In Belgium the NW Alpines blended with the dolichocephalic cromagnoid
    Beaumes Chaude type, presumtively Berid, though the Brown Type
    acquires nowhere a considerable strong represenation, although some
    of its facial characteristics may have passed on the Belgians, as in
    the cranial series from the AD1500's cemetery of the Verdronken Land
    van Saaftingen, where the cranial index ranges from 79 to 92 for
    males, and 77 to 92 for females, the mean being 85.61; the orbits are
    low and the nasal index indicates mesorhinity, the facial breadth is
    136mm, barely by just 1mm outside the Nordic mean and lower than the
    mean of the Perigordian pre-neolithic small-set Mediterrenean in SW
    France, Alpines and Borreby are broader-faced, the size and vaults as
    well a tall stature suggest strongly a prevalent impliment of Borreby.
    So far, so good, but in its own right the Perigordian matches in
    cranial breadth, 150mm, the Cromagnids, the Alpines and Borreby, but
    Coon, Lundman and Vallois were wrong in invoking some link between
    the Perigordians, the Berids, the Téviec and Beaumes Chaude type with
    Alpines, since Téviec and Beaumes Chaude had narrow skulls, resp.
    137.2mm and 138.6mm, Téviec's skull lenght confirms to the Danubian
    and Luxemburger Alpine range with 188.2, while 191mm for Beaumes
    Chaude confirms to the Flemish-Walloon mean. Neither Danubians,
    Litorals nor Ibero-insulars are in metrical sense significant among
    Belgians, though the Mediterrenean elements is wider spread among the
    Walloons, Brussel and with some hesitation on the Flemish coast, but
    usually morphologically and in pigmentation pattern they would go in
    the direction of the British Mediterreneans and Atlantid groups, who
    despite a darker complexion are less distinguishable from Nordics
    than the Baskids or Westpyrenean race than the lateral build and more
    rugged, broadish Faelians.
    The inhabitants of a small Flemish village, Mendonk, in the Waasland
    (province of Oost-Vlaanderen), flanking the left board of the
    Scheldt, caught the attention of the prolific francophone Belgian
    anthropologist Houzé, who wanted to prove the further existence of
    brachycephalic existence in near-impenetrable secluded places bounded
    by bogs and watercourses from the dolichocephalic Franks in his study
    for the Bulletin de la Societé d'Anthropologie de Bruxelles, Enquête
    anthropologique sur le village de Mendonck(1896-1897) and from which
    Coon renders us the following data:

    "The mean stature of 60 males is 170.3 cm.; the cephalic index 81.2,
    with head lengths and breadths of 192 mm. and 156 mm. The bizygomatic
    diameter is 139 mm. These men are thus tall, sub-brachycephalic, and
    broad-faced; in pigmentation, 74 per cent have light skins.
    The eyes are 15 per cent blue, 73 per cent mixed, and 12 per cent
    brown; since Houzé followed Bertillon's method, these figures may be
    considered accurate. The hair is listed as blond, 63 per cent; light
    brown, 6 per cent; dark brown, 31 per cent. In other words, they are
    intermediate in hair and eye color, but on the light side. Occipital
    flattening is common; the nasal profile is usually straight, and the
    nasal tip often snubbed.
    Houzé's regressions make it clear that there are, in this Mendonck
    population, two clearly distinguishable types, a Frankish Nordic,
    with a stature of about 167 cm., and leptorrhine; and a Borreby type
    with a stature of 171 cm., and a mesorrhine tendency. The tall
    brachycephals have a heavy body build, a broad face, a deep, heavy
    jaw, short upper facial segment, and heavy browridges. The Nordic
    type runs more to prominence and length of nose and upper face, and
    less to bony eminences in general. It is a more delicate, less
    massive type."
    In cephalic index the people of Mendonk approach the neolithic
    Furfooz race of the Trou de Frontal finds in the Maas valley in the
    province of Luik, not in stature though(161cm), but the skull form
    equals in a perfect sense Furfooz…and the Dobbertiner Plau skull…and
    runs through the majority of the Walloon population, not globular,
    but rounded with a steep descend.
    The Furfooz race is called Alpine, if the abovementioned fairness of
    pigmentation prolongs well beyond the Neolithic when the Alpine race
    came in full development, then blondism is not merely incipient to
    this race, but was a primary condition, later infusion by
    Mediterrenean and prognathious paedomorphic Muge type of
    brachycephals may have widened the seperation between Alpines and the
    larger-headed, fairer Plau-Borreby types in some parts of Europe.

    "The heads of all these people, except for the Luxemburg sample, are
    extremely large. The mean head length of Flemings is 194 mm., for
    Walloons 191.4 mm. Only the Luxemburg group has a mean of under 190
    mm. If one selects the individuals from the different provincial
    samples with cephalic indices of 82 and over, so as to eliminate the
    influence of dolichocephals and mesocephals, and seriates for head
    lengths and breadths, one finds mean lengths of 190-192 mm. for all
    provinces except Luxemburg, where the mean is 186 mm.; the mean
    breadths of these selected heads are 160 mm. and over, except for
    Luxemburg, where the mean is 157 mm. The significance of this
    exercise is clear. Among both Flemings and Walloons, the major
    brachycephalic element is of Borreby size, while in Luxemburg only is
    truly Alpine brachycephaly in the French sense predominant. The head
    length and breadth means of the major group are nearly as great as
    those of the Baltic island of Fehmarn, the modern Borreby
    concentration point, while those of Luxemburg are similar to the
    dimensions of French brachycephals. The modern Walloons retain in
    unaltered form the cranial characters of their brachycephalic
    Neolithic ancestors. Today as during the Neolithic, they form a
    southwestern periphery of the Borreby racial area, the center of
    which lies actually well to the south of Denmark."(TROE)
    The Blond type in Luxemburg is still majorative with 37.99%, the
    Brown Type comes second with 30.54%, the province of Henegouwen is
    more brunet(32.01%).
    Among 33,503 Luxemburger school children Vanderkindere finds 37.99%
    with both fair hair and eyes, 30.54% have a fully brunet condition,
    but overall in 58.30% of the cases children have light eyes.
    Bear in mind that the Nordic Frankish finds in Wallonia come mostly
    from cemeteries across the provinces of Namen and Henegouwen, not
    Luxemburg, so their blondism can not be immediately invoked to
    accredite the high percentage of fair pigmentation pattern among the
    Luxemburgers.

    Metric Distance of Selected Caucasoid Individuals(specimens taken
    from Coon's TROE):

    http://www.racearchives.com/calc/hap...=racesofeurope


    European Map on Head Size(Lenght+Breadth):

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm


    Insofar the somatic condition didn't evolve into reductive
    specialisation in a conservative, uncharitable environment or
    admixture occured with races usually of more gracile dispostion and
    less archaic outcrops of the cranio-skeletical condition, as in
    Nordics, Mediterreans and Dinarics, the Alpine race in Europe is to
    be appraised as equally large-headed as the Borreby and Belgian
    type of the "Subnordic" race(the Galatian is a mere brachycephalic,
    less wide-faced, high faced nonetheless Nordic), in fact the latter
    represents a progression into Nordic morphological characteristics,
    however, never completely attained, the basic features are in
    metrical sense Borreby-Alpine in expression(on which I will divulge
    in due time), including a mediocre stature.
    In such, the Alpine race is a mixomorphic race that while a
    biological and morphological unity on itself, transcends in its
    versatile variability to either its main matrix, the "Borreby" race,
    or approximates the Nordic race; hence why as I demonstrated in my
    treatise of the Dobbertiner Prae-Finns, we find an Alpine Cromagnoid
    type(Plau) in association with primitive Nordoids.

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    Post Re: Belgian "Subnordics"

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Considering the problem of the racial character of the inhabitants of
    the Flemish marshlands, C.S.Coon in TROE states that "the swampy
    shores were apparently the home of a southwestern extension of the
    Danish Borreby people, who merged with Alpines in the highlands, and
    who, on their own marshes, maintained their racial identity in
    isolated spots until almost modern times."
    Both Flemings and Walloons are moderately thick-set in bodily build
    with broad shoulders great relative sitting height and arms which are
    not long.
    In every other sense they comply to Montandon's Subnordic appelation,
    insofar that I re-interpret the data in favour of identifying as by
    nature a mixomorphic racial type between Nordic and Plau, possible
    quite unadultered survival of the mesolithic Dobbertiner population
    or at least a distant blend; Louis Bolk in an article for the
    Nederlandsche Tijdschrift voor Geneeskunde(1921) sketches in short
    the anthropological history of the Netherlands and finds out that the
    majority of the Dutch are Nordics and Alpines(like the Belgians), the
    latter constituting the oldest inhabitants, mainly aiming for the
    coast and river boards, while the Frisians would have initiated a
    rather tardive Nordic infiltration from the north. Brachycephaly is
    commonest in East Limburg, Zuid-Beveland and the Saxon provinces;
    there might be a faint strain of East Baltic traits in the population
    of the Netherlands, but since the Saxons settled in the Netherlands
    before any contacts with the Slavs along the Elbe, it's safe to say
    the roundheaded condition harks back to NW Alpines and brachoid
    Faelians.
    In Belgium the NW Alpines blended with the dolichocephalic cromagnoid
    Beaumes Chaude type, presumtively Berid, though the Brown Type
    acquires nowhere a considerable strong represenation, although some
    of its facial characteristics may have passed on the Belgians, as in
    the cranial series from the AD1500's cemetery of the Verdronken Land
    van Saaftingen, where the cranial index ranges from 79 to 92 for
    males, and 77 to 92 for females, the mean being 85.61; the orbits are
    low and the nasal index indicates mesorhinity, the facial breadth is
    136mm, barely by just 1mm outside the Nordic mean and lower than the
    mean of the Perigordian pre-neolithic small-set Mediterrenean in SW
    France, Alpines and Borreby are broader-faced, the size and vaults as
    well a tall stature suggest strongly a prevalent impliment of Borreby.
    So far, so good, but in its own right the Perigordian matches in
    cranial breadth, 150mm, the Cromagnids, the Alpines and Borreby, but
    Coon, Lundman and Vallois were wrong in invoking some link between
    the Perigordians, the Berids, the Téviec and Beaumes Chaude type with
    Alpines, since Téviec and Beaumes Chaude had narrow skulls, resp.
    137.2mm and 138.6mm, Téviec's skull lenght confirms to the Danubian
    and Luxemburger Alpine range with 188.2, while 191mm for Beaumes
    Chaude confirms to the Flemish-Walloon mean. Neither Danubians,
    Litorals nor Ibero-insulars are in metrical sense significant among
    Belgians, though the Mediterrenean elements is wider spread among the
    Walloons, Brussel and with some hesitation on the Flemish coast, but
    usually morphologically and in pigmentation pattern they would go in
    the direction of the British Mediterreneans and Atlantid groups, who
    despite a darker complexion are less distinguishable from Nordics
    than the Baskids or Westpyrenean race than the lateral build and more
    rugged, broadish Faelians.
    The inhabitants of a small Flemish village, Mendonk, in the Waasland
    (province of Oost-Vlaanderen), flanking the left board of the
    Scheldt, caught the attention of the prolific francophone Belgian
    anthropologist Houzé, who wanted to prove the further existence of
    brachycephalic existence in near-impenetrable secluded places bounded
    by bogs and watercourses from the dolichocephalic Franks in his study
    for the Bulletin de la Societé d'Anthropologie de Bruxelles, Enquête
    anthropologique sur le village de Mendonck(1896-1897) and from which
    Coon renders us the following data:

    "The mean stature of 60 males is 170.3 cm.; the cephalic index 81.2,
    with head lengths and breadths of 192 mm. and 156 mm. The bizygomatic
    diameter is 139 mm. These men are thus tall, sub-brachycephalic, and
    broad-faced; in pigmentation, 74 per cent have light skins.
    The eyes are 15 per cent blue, 73 per cent mixed, and 12 per cent
    brown; since Houzé followed Bertillon's method, these figures may be
    considered accurate. The hair is listed as blond, 63 per cent; light
    brown, 6 per cent; dark brown, 31 per cent. In other words, they are
    intermediate in hair and eye color, but on the light side. Occipital
    flattening is common; the nasal profile is usually straight, and the
    nasal tip often snubbed.
    Houzé's regressions make it clear that there are, in this Mendonck
    population, two clearly distinguishable types, a Frankish Nordic,
    with a stature of about 167 cm., and leptorrhine; and a Borreby type
    with a stature of 171 cm., and a mesorrhine tendency. The tall
    brachycephals have a heavy body build, a broad face, a deep, heavy
    jaw, short upper facial segment, and heavy browridges. The Nordic
    type runs more to prominence and length of nose and upper face, and
    less to bony eminences in general. It is a more delicate, less
    massive type."In cephalic index the people of Mendonk approach the neolithic
    Furfooz race of the Trou de Frontal finds in the Maas valley in the
    province of Luik, not in stature though(161cm), but the skull form
    equals in a perfect sense Furfooz…and the Dobbertiner Plau skull…and
    runs through the majority of the Walloon population, not globular,
    but rounded with a steep descend.
    The Furfooz race is called Alpine, if the abovementioned fairness of
    pigmentation prolongs well beyond the Neolithic when the Alpine race
    came in full development, then blondism is not merely incipient to
    this race, but was a primary condition, later infusion by
    Mediterrenean and prognathious paedomorphic Muge type of
    brachycephals may have widened the seperation between Alpines and the
    larger-headed, fairer Plau-Borreby types in some parts of Europe.

    "The heads of all these people, except for the Luxemburg sample, are
    extremely large. The mean head length of Flemings is 194 mm., for
    Walloons 191.4 mm. Only the Luxemburg group has a mean of under 190
    mm. If one selects the individuals from the different provincial
    samples with cephalic indices of 82 and over, so as to eliminate the
    influence of dolichocephals and mesocephals, and seriates for head
    lengths and breadths, one finds mean lengths of 190-192 mm. for all
    provinces except Luxemburg, where the mean is 186 mm.; the mean
    breadths of these selected heads are 160 mm. and over, except for
    Luxemburg, where the mean is 157 mm. The significance of this
    exercise is clear. Among both Flemings and Walloons, the major
    brachycephalic element is of Borreby size, while in Luxemburg only is
    truly Alpine brachycephaly in the French sense predominant. The head
    length and breadth means of the major group are nearly as great as
    those of the Baltic island of Fehmarn, the modern Borreby
    concentration point, while those of Luxemburg are similar to the
    dimensions of French brachycephals. The modern Walloons retain in
    unaltered form the cranial characters of their brachycephalic
    Neolithic ancestors. Today as during the Neolithic, they form a
    southwestern periphery of the Borreby racial area, the center of
    which lies actually well to the south of Denmark."(TROE)The Blond type in Luxemburg is still majorative with 37.99%, the
    Brown Type comes second with 30.54%, the province of Henegouwen is
    more brunet(32.01%).
    Among 33,503 Luxemburger school children Vanderkindere finds 37.99%
    with both fair hair and eyes, 30.54% have a fully brunet condition,
    but overall in 58.30% of the cases children have light eyes.
    Bear in mind that the Nordic Frankish finds in Wallonia come mostly
    from cemeteries across the provinces of Namen and Henegouwen, not
    Luxemburg, so their blondism can not be immediately invoked to
    accredite the high percentage of fair pigmentation pattern among the
    Luxemburgers.

    Metric Distance of Selected Caucasoid Individuals(specimens taken
    from Coon's TROE):

    http://www.racearchives.com/calc/hap...=racesofeurope


    European Map on Head Size(Lenght+Breadth):

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm


    Insofar the somatic condition didn't evolve into reductive
    specialisation in a conservative, uncharitable environment or
    admixture occured with races usually of more gracile dispostion and
    less archaic outcrops of the cranio-skeletical condition, as in
    Nordics, Mediterreans and Dinarics, the Alpine race in Europe is to
    be appraised as equally large-headed as the Borreby and Belgian
    type of the "Subnordic" race(the Galatian is a mere brachycephalic,
    less wide-faced, high faced nonetheless Nordic), in fact the latter
    represents a progression into Nordic morphological characteristics,
    however, never completely attained, the basic features are in
    metrical sense Borreby-Alpine in expression(on which I will divulge
    in due time), including a mediocre stature.
    In such, the Alpine race is a mixomorphic race that while a
    biological and morphological unity on itself, transcends in its
    versatile variability to either its main matrix, the "Borreby" race,
    or approximates the Nordic race; hence why as I demonstrated in my
    treatise of the Dobbertiner Prae-Finns, we find an Alpine Cromagnoid
    type(Plau) in association with primitive Nordoids.
    So I am a Belgian sub-nordic....

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    Post Re: Belgian "Subnordics"

    Correct me if I am wrong, as a Walloon, this is my observation:

    People from Western Flanders seem to be a kind of North-Atlantid and Keltic Nordic to me, while in the East (Limburg) a fairer, more jocund, fuller faces of Borrebies, sub nordic and Faelid seem more common, more German looking people (not necesseraly more Nordid, but more German in the sense of "from Germany").
    Those types are present in Wallonia, but has a more considerable Alpine (more so in the south-east) and Atlanto mediteranean (more so in the West) influence, even though those influence are more or less common everywhere in Belgium. I think that a Flemish influence is more present in Western Wallonia. I live in Liege, the easternmost Wallonian city, and you won't find a single Flemish in the streets, and if you do happen to hear a Dutch word, it is more likely spoken by a Dutch than a Flemish. Limbourg seems like a whole another country for us despite being so close, while I guess people from Hainault and West/East Flanders mix more together.


    People in small isolated flemish towns like Lokeren and Beveren seem to be quite Nordid in the strict sense to me, more so than the rest of the country.

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    Post Re: Belgian "Subnordics"

    In my opinion Belgium has more non-nordid mixen than described on nordish.com.
    I can only tell something about East and West Flanders.
    West : pred borreby- keltic nordic mixing at the East coast. ( Knokke-Blankenberge) . West coast you find more Keltic, nord atlantid, and subnordic (nord-dinarid). In the south-west you find a lot subnordic, as north atlantid and keltic to. Centre West-Flanders you find a more brunet people. But overal it's Borreby-Keltic-Dinarid-Atlantid.

    East: In the nord Keltic ,Borreby And Phalian ( the more you go to Antwerp) Alsow some Alpine influence to the east side . In the centre ( Ghent) you find a la lot of Keltic nordic and subnordic. The more you go to the south from , the more atlanto med-keltic mixing their is. ( Peter van Petegem)

    But overall Keltic nordid is predo.

    I find It also very remarcable that a lot of the Miss Belgiums were Phalian ...
    this type is more common in the north ( Northern Antwerp and Northern Limburg)

    About Lokeren and Beveren: I think this was the case some decades ago, but nowadays They are not that Isolated from the rest of Belgium. I know some people from Lokeren and they are mostly keltic nordid and Borreby.

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