Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3456789 LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 84

Thread: Anglo-Saxon Origins: The Reality of the Myth

  1. #71
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    OneWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Online
    Saturday, August 25th, 2012 @ 09:50 AM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Location
    Tulsa,Oklahoma
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Posts
    781
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Your right Ocko.The Saxon confederation of tribes loved to use the horse as a symbol of strength and virility.Tactius says in his "Germania" that the Germanic people at the time would practice a sort of "Horse Whispering" in which several priests would observe a horse tied up and would cast divinities based on the movements and actions of the horse.
    As far as Hengist and Horsa go,I think they were givin these names because they where large of stature, very strong and basically Alpha Males.
    I believe that the invasion of England was a slow process.I think it took 200 years for the Anglo-Saxon forces to finally subdue the Welsh or strangers and to begin their reign unimpeded until the Normans changed their way of life and became the ruling class.
    One custom I always found interesting was at the birth of a Northmans son,the northman would produce a sword,lay it by the newborn and whisper"With this sword you must take all that you may need".With those kinds of "family values"nobody was safe from the wrath of the Northman.Here is a link to the Risala or Ibn Fadlan's account of the Rus.

    http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml#Risala

  2. #72
    Senior Member Angelcynn Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, March 1st, 2012 @ 07:34 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Subrace
    Anglo-Saxon
    Country
    England England
    State
    Essex Essex
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Politics
    National Capitalist
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    870
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ubbe View Post
    You are fairly ignorant of the Frisians. Frisian is the closest living language to English. The Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians were basically similar stock genetically and spoke mutually intelligible tongues. These tribes intermarried, offered sanctuary, fought as allies, shared the same faith/culture besides the wars they fought between eachother. Read the story of Finn the Frisian found in Beowulf and the Finnsburg Fragment. Or J.R.R. Tolkien's take on the story in Finn and Hengest.

    Finn is a Frisian Lord who is married to the sister of a Danish Lord. In his service are a large number of Jute Thanes. Another group of Jutes come to spend the winter in Finn's Hall and celebrate Yule. The two groups of Jutes are bitter rivals and a fight eventually breaks out in which Finn is killed.
    You're wasting your time. Cbvnm was one of those net nut-cases that come along from time to time, and had this grand theory that everyone's heritage could be deciphered from their hair colour. Brown hair meant you were Celtic; blond that you were Germanic; and black that you were Latin. He flittered around several racialist boards posting this sort of nonsense for a couple of years under various guises.

    Even more importantly, he made that post around 7 years ago, and hasn't been seen on this site in a long time. So i doubt he'll be thankful for the effort you went to to respond to him.

    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
    I am the Teeth in the Darkness, the Talons in the Night.
    Mine is Strength... and Lust... and Power!
    I AM BEOWULF!

  3. #73
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Last Online
    Friday, January 6th, 2012 @ 10:52 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Gender
    Posts
    11
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    The Ancient English of the Ice Age

    The paleolithic continuity theory states that indo-europeans have been indigenous to Europe since the last ice-age.

    Ancient people travelled and communicated along waterways. British geography - with waterways on western and eastern sides but mountain ranges down the middle - meant that it was settled from the first by two distinct populations creating different civilisations.

    A North Sea civilisation developed as Germanic ('Anglo-Frisian') people travelled from an ice-age refuge in southern France around 10,000BP and settled the North Sea basin before it was flooded and then moved into neighbouring areas of Eastern Britain and Western Europe.

    An Atlantic civilisation developed as Brythonic Celtic people travelled along the Atlantic coast from Iberia into Western Britain and Ireland. (Much later - just before Roman times - their distant cousins the Gaels took the same route and invaded Ireland)

    The Ancient English were physically larger than the Celts - and there existence has been confirmed by the larger footprints they have left.

    The Celts developed a megalithic culture (stonehenge etc) - and remains of megaliths are all in the western parts of Britain - and not in the eastern germanic areas.

    There will have been movements of germanic people across the english channel or north sea since the Ice Age - but always in small numbers - never in enough quantities to change the basic Anglo-Frisian nature of the population.

    Similarly at times Celtic warlords may have invaded from western Britain and created a celtic aristocracy ruling over a germanic population.

    After the Romans left then relatively small numbers of continental germanics came over and filled the power vaccuum.

    However the mass of the population remained Anglo-Frisian in genetics and language and customs. (For instance house-building styles remained indigenous and different from the continental invaders).

    Thus the English language still shows its closest kinship with Frisian and not with the language of the invading Saxons from Germany. Thus it has so few Celtic words or place names because there have never been many Celtic speakers in Eastern Britain ever.

    Origin of Indo-Europeans - Paleolithic Continuity Theory

  4. #74
    Member KWulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Online
    Friday, February 19th, 2010 @ 04:07 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English with small Irish, Welsh and Visigothic Spanish ancestry
    Subrace
    Don't know
    Country
    England England
    Location
    London Borough of Barnet
    Gender
    Age
    28
    Family
    Single adult
    Politics
    National Liberalism
    Religion
    Germanic Heathen
    Posts
    63
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet View Post
    by Malcolm Todd, Professor of Archaeology at the University of Exeter.
    One of the strangest things about the English is the fact that they do not have a foundation legend or a founder-hero. (return)
    [/SIZE]
    The tale goes something like this:

    After the Romans left them the lands of Britain were ruled by a high king named Vortigern who realised that Rome's rule had made his people fat, soft, weak, and thus easy prey for the Picts to the North, the Scots-Irish of the West and the ever-present threat of the Eastern sea-wolves; the blue-eyed Saxon raiders of Germania who worshiped storm and gleefully rode the curning waves on their foam-cresters. So he sought to fight fire with fire, and with the lure of thick Roman gold coins he summoned for barbarian swords of hire to come to his domain's aid. Answering the Welshman's call came three strong keels filled with warrior-crews of masterless men headed by Hengest; great-great-grandson of the god Woden himself. And it twas the Allfather himself who had guided Hengest and his sturdy men from Finn's smouldering hall in Friesland to Britain's shores, for in his own country the lands were becoming thick with men and foodstuffs were becoming lean. And so as customary Hengest and his thanes had left their homelands on the Jutland peninsula to find employment as mercenaries just as their ancestors had done for the Legions in days long gone by. Vortigern then declared that if the Germans would serve him well in the field of battle he would grant them and their dependents good lands in Kent as payment. As was inevitable when Pictish marauders troubled the land once more Vortigern and his housemen stood back and relaxed as they watched the German newcomers easily butcher the lesser warriors and send them running back over the wall of Hadrian to their darksome glens. For this great service Hengest and his men were given the island of fine island of Thanet by Vortigern and on it they built a mighty stronghold ready to drive away all enemies. This building would be a wise move for though Vortigern had sworn sacred oaths with Hengest and even become kin to him through marriage to his beautiful daughter, the Welsh king had no respect for plighted troth and in his halls he planned betrayal. Knowing that if the Germans wanted to seize more power they could and fearing that Hengest was as treacherous as him and wished to take his throne Vortigern broke his oath to the warlord and told him and his hard-fighting men to leave Kent and Britain forever, thus was born the phrase 'to be welshed' as in 'to be swindled'. Rightly the warrior king was furious and so he sent back word to his kinsmen and the other landless men of Germana concerning the richness of Britain's lands and the worthlessness of her current inhabitants. And so all those Jutes, Saxons and Angles who would later be called the English came then unto the country of the White Cliffs, not now as raiders but as invaders and settlers, mighty war-smiths they took the land. Meeting Vortigern and his underlings at Stonehenge Hengest and his allies slaughtered the Welsh to a man, thus encouraging more and more English folk to flock to the island. With these conquering pioneers came Horsa from Bunde, the brother to Hengest he bore their ancestral banner of the proud White Horse which thereafter was taken up by the sons of Kent. The sons of Vortigern thus called the Welshmen to arms and met with the English in great battle near the place now named Aylesford, there Horsa was slain and in his honour the sacred rock of Ing became his burial ground; the White Horse stone. Hengest then swore no peace with the Welsh and for the rest of his life-reign as King of Kent he led the English tribes into battle, winning great victories in places such as Crayford, where four thousand Welshmen were cut down. The massacre at Crayford would only be the beginning; for other great warlords like Cerdic, Aella, and Ida would soon come take Britain and though Hengest would never see with his eyes, the Welsh would eventaully flee the English like fire into the mountains and craggy coasts of western Britain; where they remain to this day. Three hundred years later all the Germanic lands would be united under one English king, and it would be forever named thus afterwards for its masters: England.

    Foundation legend: check. Founder-hero: check.
    Its all there if you know where to look.

  5. #75
    Account Inactive
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 @ 05:09 AM
    Ethnicity
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    Ancestry
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,133
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,489
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    121
    Thanked in
    101 Posts
    The English did not form in Britain as a coalescence of Germanic tribes, but in Hedeby. Like in this area, oriented toward Angeln, where Angles were surrounded by Jutes, Saxons and Frisians, all of these nations provided contingents toward the settlement of Britain, but not as independent actors, yet merely as components of the larger Ingvaeonic group. Similarly, whatever individuals or families left between Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands, had to have been absorbed into the surrounding populations and since made indistinct. BTW, the founder of the Angles was Yngvi. Furthermore, if we can refer to Scottish people as Scots, despite disparate origins, then why not refer to us as Angles, rather than English? It's a double standard. French are not Franks? Then why have the name?

  6. #76
    Senior Member Sigebrond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 @ 10:20 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English/British, part Irish
    Country
    England England
    State
    Sussex Sussex
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    warehouse work, arts and crafts
    Politics
    Tribalism, Anarcho-Primitivism
    Religion
    Traditionalist Pagan/heathen
    Posts
    121
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    29
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    52
    Thanked in
    34 Posts
    Yngvi a.k.a. Yngvi-Freyr is a god, not the "founder of Angles". All that means is they named a Nordic god as their tribal ancestor, just as many other Germanic tribes did with Woden. The reason most likely being that we all share common ancestry the further we go back, and the god-ancestor represents that shared ancestry and fragmented consciousness and memory that every pagan culture seeks to reassemble in future generations, through "reincarnation". They weren't stupid enough to think they were all descended from a God in the sky, this is a Judeo-Christian creationist concept. Tribes could only trace, or remember, their royal family tree back so far, until they had to represent their distant ancestors with this deity ancestor.

    The Angles most likely actually led the Anglo-Saxon invasion, and along with the Danes appear to have dominated the confederation of tribes, over their weaker Jutish and Frisian rivals at least. The Jutes were actually defeated and governed by the Angles, so Hengest and Horsa, or whatever their real names were (possibly Octa and Ebissa), would likely have been Anglish nobles. This background (which is better understood by reading Saxo Grammaticus and the basis for the Hamlet story) explains a lot about the tension that reaches boiling point in the Finnesburg fragment, and its retelling in Beowulf. Regarding Frisians, if they contributed to our ethnic makeup at all, they weren't actually real Frisians (who died or left en masse due to rising water levels) but were of essentially the same mixture of tribes as the Anglo-Saxons, i.e. Angles, Saxons and Jutes. I have come across theories arguing that Old English became distinct from Old Frisian because of the influence of Flemish, and that Flemish migrants may have affected Britain much more than Frisians.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Sigebrond For This Useful Post:


  8. #77
    Account Inactive
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 @ 05:09 AM
    Ethnicity
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    Ancestry
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,133
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,489
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    121
    Thanked in
    101 Posts
    People always think of Scandinavia and Germany, but English ancestry is from Jutland, its own entity. The English Folk is caught between the two major populations and the Celts. We ought to really focus on our Jutish blood and soil. Imagine seizing Jutland and letting the Celts go. England could straddle the German Ocean once again, whether or not the Danes per se are involved in this. Denmark proper ought to consist of Skaaneland and Sjaelland, even Viken.

  9. #78
    Senior Member Sigebrond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 @ 10:20 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English/British, part Irish
    Country
    England England
    State
    Sussex Sussex
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    warehouse work, arts and crafts
    Politics
    Tribalism, Anarcho-Primitivism
    Religion
    Traditionalist Pagan/heathen
    Posts
    121
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    29
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    52
    Thanked in
    34 Posts
    Jutish identity doesn't really mean anything. The Jutes only populated Kent, the Isle of White and to some degree Hampshire (and a little in Surrey or Middlesex I think). In sources "Angles" and "Danes" are used interchangeably, because of their close alliance I suppose, so there may have even been some Danish settlement. Anyway on average half of our ancestry is a mixture of Celtic (Austrian) and pre-Celtic (Dutch) settlers. I don't see why anyone from Germanic-speaking countries cares (or pretends to care) about migration age tribal identities when all Nordic people are a mish mash of several tribes (in addition to non-Germanic language-speaking tribes).

    English identity is what it is, there's a reason this became the umbrella term for the Anglo-Saxon language, and as said above, even the Jutes were led by Anglish royalty, because the Jutes had been conquered by the Angles long before. The Jutes are actually pretty mysterious in the sources, and it's debatable if they were all that distinct a group at all (the language divide in England is clearly between English and Saxon dialects, not between English, Saxon and Jutish. There is little to no difference between the Sussex and Kentish dialects)

  10. #79
    Account Inactive
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Last Online
    Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 @ 05:09 AM
    Ethnicity
    Ethnicity
    Ancestry
    Ancestry
    Gender
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,133
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,489
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    121
    Thanked in
    101 Posts
    England and Jutland are a happy medium between Danes and Saxons. Jutland and England as regions need neither German nor Scandinavian bias for overarching genetic and cultural determinants. Now that I think about it, Jutland is just as much influenced primarily by Danes, Angles and Saxons, as England is by Danes, Jutes and Saxons. Anglo-Jute is far more middling and unitive in disposition ("via media"), than appealing to the supporters of Great Alfred and Great Knud (sod off to Great Charles). We shouldn't celebrate the divisions caused by the Danevirke and Watling Street and be preyed upon by Francophile Brussels. We're all Germanic.

  11. #80
    Senior Member Sigebrond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Last Online
    Tuesday, June 19th, 2018 @ 10:20 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    English/British, part Irish
    Country
    England England
    State
    Sussex Sussex
    Gender
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    warehouse work, arts and crafts
    Politics
    Tribalism, Anarcho-Primitivism
    Religion
    Traditionalist Pagan/heathen
    Posts
    121
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    29
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    52
    Thanked in
    34 Posts
    There is no "bias", our ancestors originate in Germany/Austria and Scandinavia period. I never really cared that much about Jutish or Danish ancestry, and always felt a bit sorry for Northerners insecure enough to get really excited when some (dubious) DNA test tells them they have "Viking ancestry", whatever that means. I know my ancestors hail from Scandinavia regardless. I don't particularly want to be descended from Viking Age Norse settlers, because they aren't that interesting.

    Germanic identity means next to nothing, because it's just a language. All that matters is broadly Nordic identity, and to a much lesser extent an understandable amount of regional pride. England is my country, English is my language, the Angles and Saxons were my ancestors (in addition to other miscellaneous Nordic peoples). That's it, I don't particularly feel the need to rename it as something else.

Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3456789 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Celtic and Germanic DNA: Scientists shatter Anglo-Saxon Myth
    By Tryggvi in forum Population Genetics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Monday, April 23rd, 2018, 06:39 AM
  2. English Origins: Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration
    By Glenlivet in forum Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: Monday, April 23rd, 2018, 06:32 AM
  3. Anglo-Saxon Cavalry – Horseplay or Reality?
    By BeornWulfWer in forum Middle Ages
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Monday, April 23rd, 2018, 05:15 AM
  4. The Origins of the Anglo-Saxon Church
    By Dagna in forum Christianity
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018, 05:52 AM
  5. Dracula, myth and reality
    By Marius in forum Early Modern Age
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Wednesday, October 12th, 2005, 03:55 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •