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Thread: Anglo-Saxon Origins: The Reality of the Myth

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    ``You don't know what you're talking about. The nation that is genetically closest to the English, is Denmark.``

    Completely rubbish.

    Danish people are similar to Sleeswijk Holstein (north-Germany near the Danish border), Norway and Sweden

    The nation that is closest to England is the Netherlands. The Dutch-Frisians are identical to the East-English and the West-English (Cornwall etc) are identical to the southern-Dutch
    The Angles and Saxons came from the Sleeswijk Holstein region and the Jutes were not from far off either, so why would it be suprising that the English were most like the Danish? I assume you are relating a Dutch / English relation due to Celtic tribes such as the Belgae who inhabited both lands. However the majority of these peoples would have retreated north and west with the rest of the Celts under pressure from the Germanic tribes. Of course there would have been some mix as I'm sure not every Briton fled or escaped, but the majority did.
    The history of our Celtic lands, our lore, our politics, our place and region names all attest to these migrations

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    I am basing my facts on DNA studies and conclusions from DNA experts on these dna data.

    I am not speculating on historical events like you both do. Speculating makes no sense.

    The DNA data will give us the hard facts

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    Milesian : yes its true that the English are not exactly the same as the Scots, Irish and Welsh

    but the English are also not the same as the Scandinavians in dna

    The English are intermediate between Scandinavians and Scots/Irish/Welsh, but the English are closer to the Scots/Irish/Welsh than to the Scandinavians

    There is only one conclusion to this data : English people are a mix of Celtic and Germanic with the Celtic being more important than the germanic
    The English are not the same as Scandinavians in terms of DNA, that is obvious. But I never said they were the same or identical. I said they were very similar and the test obviously confirms this.
    I'm afraid I have to disagree that the English are more similar to the Celts than Scandinavians. It's too general.
    Perhaps in areas such as the SW of England or the areas bordering Wales then that's a distinct possibility. However, the people of NE England are closest to Scandinavians (York was the great Viking city of Jorvik). Those of SE England are closest to the Saxons.
    England is after all "Angle-Land" in their own tongue. In the tongue of the Goidelic Celts is is "Sassana" (Saxon-Land). It seems neither the English or the Celtic Britons ever considered them to be Celtic.

    I agree that they are a mix, but I see the stress being on the Germanic (Anglo-Saxon and Norse) rather than Celtic (Briton)

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    I am basing my facts on DNA studies and conclusions from DNA experts on these dna data.

    I am not speculating on historical events like you both do. Speculating makes no sense.

    The DNA data will give us the hard facts
    I am also basing my facts on the very same DNA studies you claimed in addition to history.
    I see neither supporting your conclusion, however.

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    ``England is after all "Angle-Land" in their own tongue. In the tongue of the Goidelic Celts is is "Sassana" (Saxon-Land). It seems neither the English or the Celtic Britons ever considered them to be Celtic.``


    Languages dont have to say anything.

    The Anglo-Saxons obviously only made up the ruling class when they invaded England while the peasants stayed Celtic.

    The Anglo-Saxons replaced a lot of Celts (this is why the English are not exactly identical to the Scots/Welsh/Irish in dna)

    But most Celts were not replaced by the Anglo-Saxon invader.

    The modern day English people are mainly a mix of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon with the Celtic element being more important than the Anglo-Saxon element (especially in Western-England)

    All dna studies done on the English will confirm this view

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    ``England is after all "Angle-Land" in their own tongue. In the tongue of the Goidelic Celts is is "Sassana" (Saxon-Land). It seems neither the English or the Celtic Britons ever considered them to be Celtic.``


    Languages dont have to say anything.

    The Anglo-Saxons obviously only made up the ruling class when they invaded England while the peasants stayed Celtic.

    The Anglo-Saxons replaced a lot of Celts (this is why the English are not exactly identical to the Scots/Welsh/Irish in dna)

    But most Celts were not replaced by the Anglo-Saxon invader.

    The modern day English people are mainly a mix of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon with the Celtic element being more important than the Anglo-Saxon element (especially in Western-England)

    All dna studies done on the English will confirm this view

    So are you saying that historical and liguistical data are unimportant because they do not support your beliefs? How can you just discount so much data?

    You say that the Anglo-Saxons were obviously only the ruling class and the "peasants" were still Celtic. I don't see anything obvious about that. I know it is a fact that huge numbers of Celts began moving west and north and it impacted the lands they were migrating into. The fact that they started giving their names to these lands are linguistic pices of evidence. The fact that chronicals from those times also agree with that are historical pieces of evidence. But obviously they should just be dismissed?

    Well, at least we have gotten closer to the truth that certain parts of Western England have a higher predominance of Celtic genes than other areas. This is still not the same as saying the English as a whole are more Celtic than Germanic though. The study merely shows that the English have some Celtic mixed with various Germanic strains, which is under no dispute and is a fact of history. It also shows that the Celtic peoples do not show this level of Germanic influence. Howver, the study doesn't seem to back up your claims that the English are still predominantly Celtic.

    If there is a study which specifically backs this claim up then please present it

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    Milesian :

    well at least you say that English people have a lot of Celtic blood and are far from the Germanic populations of Scandinavia

    Thats a point we both agree on.

    The differences between our views is the amount of celtic versus germanic blood the English have

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    Milesian :

    well at least you say that English people have a lot of Celtic blood and are far from the Germanic populations of Scandinavia

    Thats a point we both agree on.

    The differences between our views is the amount of celtic versus germanic blood the English have
    No, I didn't say that they have a lot of Celtic blood, merely that many of them do have it. Nor did I say that they are far from the Germanics of Scandinavia, In some places the are closest to the Scandinavians in places like Newcastle and surrounding areas of the North East.

    But yes you are correct that we both agree they have Celtic and Germanic blood and it is the level we disgree on.
    What is not in dispute is the fact that the English are unquestionably ethnically Germanic, in addition.

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    cbvnm,

    here is a study showing evidence of Anglo-Saxon migration to what is now called England:

    http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/7/1008

    Let me know if you can't open this site. It may be a "subscription only" site that I can access as I am at a university that has such things. I will gladly email you the PDF file if you'd like to read it.

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    ``What is not in dispute is the fact that the English are unquestionably ethnically Germanic, in addition.``

    Like I said, this is not true

    The dna facts tell a whole different story. The dna tell us that Germanic blood is represented among the English, but its not a majority

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