View Poll Results: Polytheism vs Monotheism?

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  • Polytheism

    34 50.00%
  • Monotheism

    19 27.94%
  • Unsure or both equally as good or poor

    10 14.71%
  • Don't care

    5 7.35%
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Thread: Monotheism vs Polytheism

  1. #41
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    Okay, ThornWight. I’m not conceding anything but I’ve spent too many years ending up in pointless debates with unnecessary snark from people who ostensibly on the same side as I am. I could even be won over to your viewpoint on theism if it was a genuine discussion. Can you engage in a bit more good faith, if not to convince then what’s the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    It may be more effective if you did more than simply pretend to have read anything on Neoplatoism
    Doesn't disprove what I was getting at. Ideas that are prototypically monotheistic =\= monotheism. However there is a difference between those philosophical claims and the true literal polytheism of there being multiple powerful gods in the way primitive peoples tend to believe.

    I mean is this not true considering Plato’s hero and tutor Socrates was executed for violating the religious orthodoxy of the time? Lol



    The concept of The One relates to Apotheosis, and is quite possibly the most polar opposite of Monotheism I can imagine. Feel free to prove me wrong.
    Apotheosis/divination is not contrary to monotheism at all. Why is it a centerpiece in the two largest Churches? Only if you viewed pan/entheistic ideas as incompatible with a Supreme God. Why should that be the case?

    What I gather from Mohism, it could be described as Monotheistic, but it is significantly more complicated than Monotheism to the West and is more Pantheistic. Tian is also not a creator and is seen as nature itself.
    Yes this is not contradictory to anything I’ve said.

    No, he is an idiot. Believe whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me.
    Okay.

    A god is a species of spirit. Worship means to give worth to. So you worship what is worthy of the time and sacrifice.
    This is a poor definition that doesn’t make sense and isn’t fleshed out enough. How does any of that follow? It’s not a genuine attempt to convince anyone.

    Kind of funny you used the Mormons as an example for this, since that is exactly what the LDS is claiming to do - restore the Early Church. They are Christian Reconstructionists trying to bring back the original Church from some 2,000 years ago. Are you telling me that this entire religion is illegitimate because they do not have every fine detail of the Early Church?
    Yes it’s illegitimate because it was founded by a demagogue and fraudster like what I said earlier. It’s just funny to contemplate. The LDS Church is essentially a fraction of the Puritan Church.

    The line was killed. It was learned before and can be re-learned again. Does any Monotheist really have a legitimate practice by the same logic? No Church has survived unchanged for 2,000 years. Each one blends to the local nation. Each one has undergone drastic changes, reformations, divergences, and adjusting. The current Pope is certainly not doing anything to preserve the traditions of the RCC, and he is far from the first to do this. Can you really say that any Monotheism has not had their line also killed?
    A reformation, revision or transformation is different to being completely crushed with only fragments left to pick up. In the case of some sects that were eliminated, yes it has been killed.

    No, not really. Monotheism is more a political ideology than proper theology. The Roman Empire was already trying to centralize religion under the cult of Sol Invictus before Christianity took off, then one day the emperors saw an opportunity and began being friendly towards the Christians. They were trying to do the same thing as the Persians because it is politically convenient in a large empire.
    Bold claim. Creating deities like Serapis is also politically expedient.

  2. #42
    Member ThornWight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leRoux View Post
    Okay, ThornWight. I’m not conceding anything but I’ve spent too many years ending up in pointless debates with unnecessary snark from people who ostensibly on the same side as I am. I could even be won over to your viewpoint on theism if it was a genuine discussion. Can you engage in a bit more good faith, if not to convince then what’s the point?
    I've been engaging in good faith, and I honestly have no intention of converting anyone. Truth be told, there are certain Christians closer to my theology than certain so-called Heathens (such as Varg). Everything is as everything is supposed to be for this timeline.

    However there is a difference between those philosophical claims and the true literal polytheism of there being multiple powerful gods in the way primitive peoples tend to believe.
    You keep saying I am being snarky or snobby and yet you keep calling my religion illegitimate, saying its followed by primitive people, and only really being very condescending towards it when I've said nothing even remotely similar about Monotheism.

    Apotheosis/divination is not contrary to monotheism at all. Why is it a centerpiece in the two largest Churches? Only if you viewed pan/entheistic ideas as incompatible with a Supreme God. Why should that be the case?
    Apotheosis is not the same as Divinization, it is considered the gravest of heresy within the Church. It is the highest honor for Polytheists however, much as Divinization is for Catholics.

    Yes this is not contradictory to anything I’ve said.
    Western Monotheism relies exclusively on a creator god. An intelligent anthropomorphized god is very specific to Indo-European cultures. Eastern gods, are only depicted as humans due to Hellenistic influence after Alexander the Great. Tian, and gods like him, were not creators, they are forces of nature and exist within it. Tian does not communicate with mankind, it is just the highest order of nature in Mohism.

    This is a poor definition that doesn’t make sense and isn’t fleshed out enough.
    What does not make sense about it?

    Yes it’s illegitimate because it was founded by a demagogue and fraudster like what I said earlier. It’s just funny to contemplate. The LDS Church is essentially a fraction of the Puritan Church.
    Maybe having a prophet to reveal their messages to mankind (the issue you had with Paganism earlier) does not ensure a divine, coherent system then?

    A reformation, revision or transformation is different to being completely crushed with only fragments left to pick up. In the case of some sects that were eliminated, yes it has been killed.
    Again, how is any existing Church any different? Muslim sects are so diverse it can vary based on which village you go to. Christianity has almost 40,000 sects today. Protestantism does not in any manner whatsoever resemble the Coptics still in the middle east today. How does Monotheism not also just have fragments by this same logic?

    Bold claim. Creating deities like Serapis is also politically expedient.
    I did say it was a function of empires.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    You keep saying I am being snarky or snobby and yet you keep calling my religion illegitimate, saying its followed by primitive people, and only really being very condescending towards it when I've said nothing even remotely similar about Monotheism.
    Okay. Maybe this is the source of confusion then.

    My problem is that this is how I philosophically perceive true “hard” polytheism to be, and religiously I find there to be strong legitimacy issues with reconstructing a tradition so long forgotten. I’m not saying you are wrong for holding your views, I’m just curious how you go past these issues more than simply believing it is because it is.

    I used to be very much into reconstructionism from an early age. I found it most satisfying to be involved in Greco-Roman Paganism as there are more extant texts and ideas that grew out of that religion that are still more obviously coopted into Christianity. I did however have a very syncretic view of all Indo-European pagan faiths and did a lot of research into their similarities, common origins etc. I just found Greco-Roman more interesting as it existed in a well-recorded civilization that was within the canon of recorded history.

    At some point though, I felt that there was a lack of a well-defined moral with true objectivity. My guess is this was probably much more obvious and didn’t require codification when these beliefs held hegemony (I’m sure there would be similar problems of Christianity went through the same process). But I can’t replicate this as an individual. By having to build this, I was concerned my human subjectivity would create a corrupted moral system, seeing as I was not a prophet with revelation. This was also a practically hermetic religious lifestyle as you cannot share this with a living community (outside of the internet) who will receive you, unless you are extremely lucky. This and some changing life circumstances meant I ended up flirting with Traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy for a time. Sure, I observed the same criticisms of Christianity that Nietzsche did, but it was an objective moral system well fleshed out that I could try to follow. It wasn’t a huge mystery. The challenge was applying the moral code to my actions in life and not in defining that system prior to. I also appreciated that I suddenly had a congregation with whom I made friends, and more moral authority figures with whom I could discuss issues. I might disagree with them, but the community aspect was a beautiful thing. To also be able to engage in mass/liturgy in the same way one’s ancestors had 1000 years ago is also a beautiful thing.

    In the end, however, I couldn’t ever get over the Semitic origins of Christianity. I felt the OT was the history of an evil people who essentially dedicated themselves to subverting their own rules for their own gain. This is unironically in the Talmud with the story of Rabbi Eliezer. To subscribe to a religion that cannot really shake this past without itself becoming somewhat too invented was too much.

    And now I’m at where I’m at, questioning. I’m not hostile to your beliefs, I just wonder how the problems can be answered.

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    My problem is that this is how I philosophically perceive true “hard” polytheism to be,
    With all due respect; International law states that we all have the right to freedom of religion and there is no reason why a Monotheistic religion like Christianity, Judaism or Islam can not function within that Polythiestic legal framework! ALL GODS ARE CREATED EQUAL BY MAN. I heard a freaked out hippy at a festival many years ago say "Polythiesm is just a brothel full of One True Gods, all prostituting the truth!

    I BELIEVE IT!

  5. #45
    Member ThornWight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leRoux View Post
    At some point though, I felt that there was a lack of a well-defined moral with true objectivity. My guess is this was probably much more obvious and didn’t require codification when these beliefs held hegemony (I’m sure there would be similar problems of Christianity went through the same process). But I can’t replicate this as an individual. By having to build this, I was concerned my human subjectivity would create a corrupted moral system, seeing as I was not a prophet with revelation. This was also a practically hermetic religious lifestyle as you cannot share this with a living community (outside of the internet) who will receive you, unless you are extremely lucky. This and some changing life circumstances meant I ended up flirting with Traditional Catholicism and Orthodoxy for a time. Sure, I observed the same criticisms of Christianity that Nietzsche did, but it was an objective moral system well fleshed out that I could try to follow. It wasn’t a huge mystery. The challenge was applying the moral code to my actions in life and not in defining that system prior to. I also appreciated that I suddenly had a congregation with whom I made friends, and more moral authority figures with whom I could discuss issues. I might disagree with them, but the community aspect was a beautiful thing. To also be able to engage in mass/liturgy in the same way one’s ancestors had 1000 years ago is also a beautiful thing.

    In the end, however, I couldn’t ever get over the Semitic origins of Christianity. I felt the OT was the history of an evil people who essentially dedicated themselves to subverting their own rules for their own gain. This is unironically in the Talmud with the story of Rabbi Eliezer. To subscribe to a religion that cannot really shake this past without itself becoming somewhat too invented was too much.

    And now I’m at where I’m at, questioning. I’m not hostile to your beliefs, I just wonder how the problems can be answered.
    Well if neither Christianity, nor Paganism worked for you, and you were simply looking for a moral framework, may I suggest Buddhism? Read Julius Evola's "Doctrine of Awakening", where he explains the Aryan origin of Buddhism and how it was attempting to retain the practice of the Vedic societies prior to it. They are primarily concerned with right action for good karma, and rather undogmatic as to how many gods one chooses to follow. Could be one, could be a thousand, its up to you. It is also a "unbroken" tradition, but I think you'll find it is not so different from much of Paganism. Thats what happens when you don't have a centralized authority around it.

    Personally I am not a fan of Buddhism, it was created by an Indian prince and seems to suffer from much of the same issues as Monotheism because I believe it was created in order to unify an empire of conflicting groups in Indian at the time. It has more or less become the Christianity of Asia. Still, there is some wisdom within it.

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