View Poll Results: Polytheism vs Monotheism?

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  • Polytheism

    34 50.00%
  • Monotheism

    19 27.94%
  • Unsure or both equally as good or poor

    10 14.71%
  • Don't care

    5 7.35%
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Thread: Monotheism vs Polytheism

  1. #31
    Member ThornWight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leRoux View Post
    So yes, I'd like you to elaborate and qualify these statements better.
    Christianity dissolves the class systems of society. The class system was originally created to foster a culture of specialists in particular areas. A priestly class, a craftsmen class, a working class, etc. Christianity is Universalist and egalitarian in many ways, so removes the culture of specialists in particular areas for a lot of generalists. Typically speaking, it depends a lot on the time, place, and sect.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    Christianity dissolves the class systems of society. The class system was originally created to foster a culture of specialists in particular areas. A priestly class, a craftsmen class, a working class, etc. Christianity is Universalist and egalitarian in many ways, so removes the culture of specialists in particular areas for a lot of generalists. Typically speaking, it depends a lot on the time, place, and sect.
    But arguably the most extreme form of a class-based society in European history was feudalism, which blossomed in Catholic Europe through to the time it began to break down during the Black Death and Reformation. The hierarchy pyramid below and the idea that each toiled for the Kingdom of Heaven in their own way was well established for 1000 years.



    Part of the reason the Cathars and other pre-Protestant heretical groups were persecuted so much was for challenging this social order. Usually I see this form of society criticized in favor of the somewhat more open pre-Christian Germanic societies that existed. This system broke down around the time of the Reformation, but I wouldn't be sure if Protestant denominations were the cause. In some cases, yes. In England, however, serfdom was broken down by the Black Death as peasants found they were now in a labor-seller's market and so were put on the path to emancipation.

    I would argue that the breakdown of artisanal craftsmanship maintained through generations is a result of modern capitalism and atomizing individualism, the origins of which are found in the flowering of classical liberalism of the late 18th century. The philosophies upon which this liberalism were founded ate away at the foundations which allowed them to be thought up in the first place. They took these foundations for granted. These people undermined traditional Christian religion everywhere; the only churches which could flourish are the mainline and evangelical Protestant groups we have today.

    To ascribe all of this to Christianity as a root cause, you would have to prove that something like a culturally detached non-denominational church today is the actual true expression of Christianity and everything else is a co-opted or Paganized version of it. I myself can't make up my mind on this one.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by leRoux View Post
    But arguably the most extreme form of a class-based society in European history was feudalism, which blossomed in Catholic Europe through to the time it began to break down during the Black Death and Reformation. The hierarchy pyramid below and the idea that each toiled for the Kingdom of Heaven in their own way was well established for 1000 years.
    Depends on what you are comparing it to. Feudalism certainly had more control by the upper class, but not the same sort of separation.

    Part of the reason the Cathars and other pre-Protestant heretical groups were persecuted so much was for challenging this social order. Usually I see this form of society criticized in favor of the somewhat more open pre-Christian Germanic societies that existed. This system broke down around the time of the Reformation, but I wouldn't be sure if Protestant denominations were the cause. In some cases, yes. In England, however, serfdom was broken down by the Black Death as peasants found they were now in a labor-seller's market and so were put on the path to emancipation.
    I am mostly talking about Protestantism, since that is the denomination I am surrounded by. I think Orthodox are probably closer to the old ways, at least retaining a priestly class, which incidentally seems to remove the issue of homosexual and pedophile priests that seem disturbingly common among other denominations. I think it has a lot to do with the practices within Western churches that creates this issue.
    I'd also argue pre-Christian societies were not at all more open. It could take generations to ascend to the next class. They were seen as separate races entirely.

    I would argue that the breakdown of artisanal craftsmanship maintained through generations is a result of modern capitalism and atomizing individualism, the origins of which are found in the flowering of classical liberalism of the late 18th century. The philosophies upon which this liberalism were founded ate away at the foundations which allowed them to be thought up in the first place. They took these foundations for granted. These people undermined traditional Christian religion everywhere; the only churches which could flourish are the mainline and evangelical Protestant groups we have today.
    I'm not talking about strictly artisan crafts, this is a religious thread and I was just using that analogy to explain the concept of magic in ancient times and how it was not a matter of things simply popping into existence like miracles. A magical system, regardless of what type of magic we are talking about, does rely on traditional, genetic lines passing down knowledge to their children. This was at least somewhat maintained until Individualistic philosophies took over.

    To ascribe all of this to Christianity as a root cause, you would have to prove that something like a culturally detached non-denominational church today is the actual true expression of Christianity and everything else is a co-opted or Paganized version of it. I myself can't make up my mind on this one.
    Well a lot of it is Christianity. It did a lot in the early days to break down Nationalism and promote an equal respect of all humans as image-bearers of Yahweh. Does this sort of thinking not lead to Individualism?

  5. #34
    Senior Member Coillearnach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    I think Orthodox are probably closer to the old ways, at least retaining a priestly class, which incidentally seems to remove the issue of homosexual and pedophile priests that seem disturbingly common among other denominations. I think it has a lot to do with the practices within Western churches that creates this issue.
    The issue is not removed in Orthodox churches unfortunately, it just doesn't get media attention in the West because it's a very minor denomination. There have been several explosive scandals recently in Eastern Europe - some particularly heinous ones involving even bishops and monks e.g. Bishop Kacavenda in Bosnia.

  6. #35
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    ... this is a religious thread...
    And the topic is the (theoretical/philosophical) concepts of monotheism vs polytheism.

    To quote myself from elsewhere and maybe try to bring back the thread to its topic

    Monotheism also doesnt make any sense. In order to procreate, you need male and female.
    A mono-god cant create anything, unless it's a (genetically defect) Hermaphrodite LOL.

    Seriously, Nature is a play of balance, of male and female, of various types of powers and forces. To reduce it to one doesnt even allow for the seperation into "good" and "bad", because everything comes from that nonsensical "allmighty" creator who has a plan for every single human, thus also creates evil. It's hilarious actually that the existence of the "good god" of "mono"theism relies entirely on the Devil, which invalids the idea of monotheism itself. It's nonsensical to the core.

    Natural Law is all about balance, a concert of forces that shape our world, our environment and us. A spirituality that does not reflect and respect this balance and this various powers and forces, but reduces everything to one, monotono-"good" god is spiritual terrorism, to which Europe's christian history is witness with ever more hysterical persecution of people not fitting into the ever narrowing definition of "good", which even goes so far as to glorify "immaculate conception" as the most holy form, denying the very fundamental basis of life itself. Early century christians consequently had rituals for "cleansing the woman from the SIN of giving birth". How sick is that?!?

    Well a lot of it is Christianity. It did a lot in the early days to break down Nationalism and promote an equal respect of all humans as image-bearers of Yahweh.
    In fact, christianity always promoted Jewish/Israeli Supremacism over the Goyim. But this is another topic (to which I'd gladly contribute some outrageous stuff in an appropiate thread), this one is about (philosophical) concepts/ideas.
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  8. #36
    Member ThornWight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coillearnach View Post
    The issue is not removed in Orthodox churches unfortunately, it just doesn't get media attention in the West because it's a very minor denomination. There have been several explosive scandals recently in Eastern Europe - some particularly heinous ones involving even bishops and monks e.g. Bishop Kacavenda in Bosnia.
    Wow, didn't know about that, sorry to hear. Monks in particular would suffer from the same issue as Western priests, since it requires a vowel of celibacy and they do not marry. The Eastern Orthodox Church typically allows marriage for the priests, and they usually have a lineage of priests that stays tightly within the family. As far as I know, at least among that group, the homosexuality and child molestation, well I've never heard of it happening among them. Might just be since there aren't as many of their churches here.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    In fact, christianity always promoted Jewish/Israeli Supremacism over the Goyim. But this is another topic (to which I'd gladly contribute some outrageous stuff in an appropiate thread), this one is about (philosophical) concepts/ideas.

    Right, philosophically monotheism implicitly means a limiting of knowledge. I was just trying to give examples of that. The ethnic issues aside, this seems to be the main issue I see from people regarding the practice of Christianity. For me it started as ethnic/Nationalist based.
    Last edited by ThornWight; 2 Days Ago at 09:21 PM. Reason: Adding Velvet's quote

  9. #37
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    Seems to me like this whole thread is focused on Christianity as a stand in for monotheism vs Paganism which is the standin for polytheism. Zoroastrianism was monotheistic (with dualistic elements, sure), in Hinduism the many deities are considered aspects of a single God, ancient Chinese philosophy/religion tended to monotheism and of course Hellenic/Hellenistic philosophy had a lot of trending towards monotheism (Stoicism, Neoplatonism). Funnily enough, former Skadi member and murderer Varg Vikernes also argues the same point as Hindus: that the various Indo-European gods are the manifestation of a single God. If I recall correctly (it has been quite a while), HFK Günther reduced most ancient polytheism back to something more like the Ancient Greek concept of Fate, not that I put much stock in Mr “Nordics achieved everything ever”. On the other side, it’s debatable that Judaism became a firmly monotheistic religion until the Babylonian captivity.

    I rather tend to agree with Varg actually. I think the idea of their being multiple gods with omnipotence is impossible. If they’re not omnipotent then they’re not gods (not that I deny the existence of such beings). I believe it’s theoretically possible for an omnipotent, omnipresent God to manifest himself in different forms recognized as gods by various cultures in the same way this is explained in Christianity with God living also as Jesus.

    I think theoretically maybe the gods are archetypes created by God for people in the way Saints are in Traditional Christianity (some would argue this was coopted). I don’t know though, in many cases some of the stories attributed to certain gods are not quite “good”. Are these corruptions handed down to us, or was this the common perception of the god? To me this is the ultimate problem with Paganism. Sympathize with it I do, but the tradition has been dead for 1500 years in most cases, no living link. Fragments are what one has to go on. It’s sad really. I can’t help but view all reconstructions as a little bit campy and inauthentic. Also, being that it’s no longer a truly revealed religion the human element weighs so much in the equation that I suspect most revivals of being highly susceptible to corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThornWight View Post
    Well a lot of it is Christianity. It did a lot in the early days to break down Nationalism and promote an equal respect of all humans as image-bearers of Yahweh. Does this sort of thinking not lead to Individualism?
    This is more the result of modern Jewish subversion. Churches historically and still in a lot of cases presently are healthy gathering places for communities which is why they were targeted. I think to claim this linear progression is a stretch.

    @velvet: speaking of outrageous stuff, years ago in the German Folk chatbox, you made a claim about a strong relationship between the Teutonic Order and crypto-Jews. I always wanted to see you explain this but I think the forum went down shortly after.

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