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Thread: Nordic Types in the Neolithic

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    Post Nordic Types in the Neolithic

    Nordic types in the Neolithic

    Kossinna (in: Ursprung und Verbreitung der Germanen in vor -und fruehgeschichtlicher Zeit, 1936) links the Nordic races to three distinct UP races: Cro Magnon, Combe Capelle and Chancelade; all made a contribution to the formation of the Nordic race and its subtypes.

    From Cro magnon the Nordic inherited its dolichoid strongly jutting dome-like ending skull shape, the prolific chin and beakyness of the
    nose, Combe Capelle allies with the Nordic in its receding forehead and manifest browridges as well the long face, Chancelade's ellipsoid rounded skull emerges among the Corded Ware type, though Montandon in his in 1943 published L'Homme préhistorique et les préhumains mentionsthat the Cromagnids had a rather similar skull form and that the pentagonoid contour of the Old Man of Cro Magnon was more exception than the rule; the medium height of the skull and hipsicephaly of Combe Capelle and Chancelade will find its analogy in the Corded type, however,both the Elb-Saale group in Thueringen as in Bohemia and the Oder group in Central Schlesia are flat-topped to moderately high, put down to either the shortheads of the Bell beaker population or to the Danubians.

    Anyhow, about the fourth to third millenium BC three nordiform skull types are to be found amoung the Northeuropean population:

    1. a dolichoid with dome-like backhead, low or medium long face with equal dualistic measurements for the upper facial parts, steep
    forehead, with beaky nose, angular slant-like orbits, but unlike Cro Magnon the browridges are strong(finds: Mysinge,Öland, Swedish
    megalithic burials, Hunnebo in West Sweden).

    2. a dolichoid type with receding forehead and marked browridges, long-faced but with roundish backhead(finds: Visby, Gotland).

    3. the Avigny type: a dolichoid with long face and rounded backhead, but unlike the Capellids with steep forehead, lacking
    browridges(finds: Denmark, North France).

    The typical Nordic long-headed skull became in pre-war literature in Denmark associated with the Cro Magnon race on behave of the flattened skull top that never quite reach the same primitive plane condition as in the Upper Paleolithic precedent; further the stricture of the shull shape towards the lower rear leading to a dome-like jutting appendage, the beakyness of the nose as well finally the alveolar prognathy(while present in the Old Man of Cro Magnon, in general the Cromagnids were orthognatious!) applied for such relationship, but the nearly fleeding forehead behind well-developed browridges fail to sustain that analogy in every aspect, the malars don't protrude but retract, which again is very unlike Cro Magnon, the angularity of the chin sympathisizes nevertheless with its pointive prominence in Cro Magnon, the narrow and medium long face can't be ascribed neither to a Combe Capelle-Chancelade (except in their mutual higher face) nor to the definetely euryprosopic Cro Magnon(FI 83!), the narrow bizygomatic breadth allows a Predmost element moulded into the Nordic race, albeit that Predmost was mesoprosopic, euryene to mesene, while his face width was broad down to narrow, coalescing with the Nordic average of 135mm.The forehead is as a rule broad, smooth and sideways slightly bowed; in combination with the tapering backhead a Keilform is attained.

    For Central Germany, South Germany and Austria the ellipsoid form is more common and in later eras adhered by the Corded Ware people, both types are by Kossinna juxtapositioned against the Mediterrenean(Ibero-Insular?) race which skull is ovoid with narrow forehead and broadened backhead.

    Viewed from behind the Nordic skull appears "fünfeckig", Predmost and Mladec assumed a similar proclivity.

    The North German skulls adhere to the Denmark finds but with reduced dimensions, in Northeast Germany the vault height is higher, likewise the orbits and face and nose are broader than usual in the Nordic.

    The Ostdorfer Seeinsel type was in a previous entry described.

    The Northwestern Germanic or megalithic type are at best typified by the 14 measurable remaining skulls from Warburg in Brandenburg.
    The skulls are partially long or medium long, notably smaller compared to the Northern and Northeastern types, but as the former
    low vaulted; the backhead doesn't profusely juts out; only three individuals show a definite curvature.

    The Keilform is sustained in three slightly deviating skull types:

    1. seven indivuals with a steep forehead and the Kegelform for the backhead.
    2. four have receding foreheads with Kegelform.
    3. The last three have a steep uprising forehead with rounded backhead. Narrow and medium long faces predominate.

    H.F.K. Günther follows in Beknopte Rassenkunde der Germaansche Volken (Amsterdam,1942) Otto Reche's hypothesis that the Nordic race started from the Chancelade-linked form and refers to the finds at the Pritzerber Lake in Brandenburg, Oberehausen in the Rhineland and near Hochlarmarck in Recklinghausen. In this outline Central and Northwest Germany belongs tothe heartland of the Nordic race. Though the contribution by the high-skulled and small-set Chancelade is perhaps overrated insofar that its traits show more a trend into refining the pre-Nordic types, while in other characteristics these early Nordics are stronger related to Predmost, which modern representative is undoubtedly the Continental Paleo-Atlantid race (though limbs proportion differ!).

    What puzzles me is on what criteria one distinguishes so immediately a Corded from a Danubian type, since the Danubian type who some reckons as Nordic (Reche), while others rank it as Proto-Mediterrenean (Vallois, et.al.).

    How would one be expected to seperate them properly, since deviation diagrams of several series of Corded and Central European LBK series allow for biological continuity, hence in the course of centuries some Danubians evolved into the Corded Ware type; not all Danubians were small build, some like the Genay type attained an average of 175cm whilethe Corded is as a rule tall.

    The Danubians were medium to high-vaulted and this characteristic is repeated in the Corded, albeit, that Kossinna very interestingly,
    describes them as flat-topped and the raised vault would be the consequence of mingling with restants of Danubians and in a later
    phase with the Bell Beaker folk, another effect are the nevertheless exceptional shorthening of the cranium.

    Both Danubians and Corded, and you may count in the Aunjetitzer Nordics, have a rounded ellipsoid head form, with flattened parientals, the so-called "Kokonform".The main difference lay in the head dimensions, the Corded is much more longer-headed, but the Danubian tends to narrower head breadth. The Danubian has a very narrow face, but the Corded is higher; both, however, are mesorhine.

    One is to believe that the Corded perpetuals the incipient Nordic strain in the Danubian LBK- population, while the smaller version may have gone through a processus of alpinisation to a virtual high-headed, infantilized but blondish Gorid type which permeates part of the Slavonic population in Central and East Europe in the Alpine and Carpathian mountain range and thus as far as deep into Massif Central of France!

    Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic anProto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early Neolithic LBK folk, may support a "Altindogermanisch" nature of the Danubians, the more since the area of occupation show in terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.

    In studying the neolithic populations in the Elbe-Saale, A.Raache dismisses on the grounds of osteological comparisons that the Danubian composition was distinctively gracile and thus foreign to the mesolithic stocks, but undoubtly Nordic, despite heterogentity.
    Von Eickstedt mentions a Alpo-Cromagnoid form as second important pilar of the Danubians.If the Corded descend or have been mixed with the later, it explains the brachycephaly of the Baltic race in Eastern Europe, since the cromagnoids are by Schliz and Schuchardt acknowledged as conveying the strain of broadheadedness over to new, either succeeding types or in hybrids, as well the un-Nordic broad nose of the Corded and the shorter snub-noses of some Baltics.

    Lothar Killian in his turn that the Corded Folk contained low-orbit Phalian types, while Rach stresses the anthropological concordance
    between different archaeological groups, like Trichterbecherkultur (TRB) and Corded-Danubians.

    Examinating the population of Walternienberg-Bernburg(TRB) and the Corded similarities were thrown into light which vouch for
    connections with the Danubians in terms of sifnificantly reciprocal indices.

    The Nordid skull is prolific for its "Keilform", a term applied by Schliz and Kossinna: the forehead recedes but is also broad and levelled, sideways faintly arching, while the skull grows behind in a projecting but tapered occiput, unlike the "Kokonform" or ellipsoid shape of the Central German and Austrian neolithic long-heads, either Corded or Danubian,or even the Aunjetitzer Nordids and thus also sharply distinctive from the ovoid skull of the West Mediterranid with narrow forehead and broadening occipital area.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Monday, April 3rd, 2006 at 02:38 PM.

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    I would say that high-headedness is about the only static trait in Eastern Europe. Everything else seems to be changing with each generation - stature, build, cephalic index, facial features, nose shape...

    For example, in my family, our grandfathers and great grandfathers were all short and extremely round headed and round faced, and mostly with snub noses. Our fathers were a bit taller, and longer faced, but still round headed. Myself and my cousins are all extremely tall, long faced and often long headed. Our noses are either straight or slightly convex. And the only thing that we have in common with our older generations are some facial features, which give us that hint of Polishness, and also the high heads. That's about it, because even the pigmentation is all different - sometimes blonder, sometimes more brunet.

    So looking for any sort of continuity from ancient times, when it comes to many of these physical traits, is a bit silly methinks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans3108
    What puzzles me is on what criteria one distinguishes so immediately
    a Corded from a Danubian type, since the Danubian type who some
    reckons as Nordic(Reche), while others rank it as Proto-Mediterrenean
    (Vallois, et.al.), interesting would also be the validation of the
    Danubian in relation to the Corded type.
    How would one be expected to seperate them properly, since deviation
    diagrams of several series of Corded and Central European LBK series
    allow for biological continuity, hence in the course of centuries
    some Danubians evolved into the Corded Ware type; not all Danubians
    were small build, some like the Genay type attained an average of
    175cm and the Corded is as a rule tall.
    The Danubians were medium to high-vaulted and this characteristic is
    repeated in the Corded, albeit, that Kossinna very interestingly,
    describes them as flat-topped and the raised vault would be the
    consequence of mingling with restants of Danubians and in a later
    phase with the Bell Beaker folk, another effect are the nevertheless
    exceptional
    shorthening of the cranium.
    Both Danubians and Corded, and you may count in the Aunjetitzer
    Nordics, have a rounded ellipsoid head form, with flattened
    parientals, the so-called "Kokonform".The main difference lay in the
    head dimensions, the Corded is much more longer-headed, but the
    Danubian tends to narrower head breadth.
    The Danubian has a very narrow face, but the Corded is higher; both,
    however, are mesorhine.
    One is to believe that the Corded perpetuals the incipient Nordic
    strain in the Danubian LBK- population, while the smaller version
    mayhave gone through a processus of alpinisation to a virtual high-
    headed, infantilized but blondish Gorid type which permeates part of
    the Slavonic population in Central and East Europe in the Alpine and
    Carpathian mountain range and thus as far as deep into Massif
    Central of France!
    Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic and
    Proto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early
    Neolithic LBK folk, may vouch for the "Altindogermanisch" nature of
    the Danubians, the more since the area occupied by them show in
    terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and
    are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE
    languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has
    been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.

    In studying the neolithic populations in the Elbe-Saale, A.Raache
    denies on the grounds of osteological comparisons that the Danubian
    make-up was distinctively gracile and thus foreign to the mesolithic
    stocks, but undoubtly Nordic, despite heterogentity.
    Von Eickstedt mentions a Alpo-Cromagnoid form as second important
    pilar of the Danubians.
    If the Corded descend or have been mixed with the later, it explains
    the brachycephaly of the Baltic race in Eastern Europe, since the
    cromagnoids are by Schliz and Schuchardt acknowledged as conveying
    the strain of broadheadedness over to new, either succeeding types or
    in blends, as well the uncannyly un-Nordic broad nose of the Corded
    and the shorter snub-noses of some Baltics.
    Lothar Killian in his turn that the Corded Folk contained low-orbit
    Phalian types, while Rach stresses the anthropological concordance
    between different archaeological groups, like Trichterbecherkultur
    (TRB) and Corded-Danubians.
    Examinating the population of Walternienberg-Bernburg(TRB) and the
    Corded similarities were thrown into light which vouch for
    connections with the Danubians in terms of sifnificantly reciprocal
    indices.
    Killian dismisses in a further note Lundman's claim of an East Nordic
    subrace, because with exception of the high-headedness, which as I
    previously in an article asserted was not the rule, TRB and Corded
    people are genuinely alike, and Corded merit to be both culturally
    and in physical aspects as so-to-speak standard-bearer of the TRB-
    Indo-european wave over Europe.

    It's a clincher repeatedly flaring up to concoct some dubious and
    unmistakenly deliberate biased theory to retrieve the Nordids from
    some Med origin and put in some old-fashioned lamarckism in place
    about the environmental factors affecting for instance pigmenattion
    of skin, hair and eyes.

    The Nordid skull is prolific for its "Keilform", term applied by
    Schliz and Kossinna: the forehead recedes but is also broad and
    levelled , sideways faintly arching, while the skull grows behind in
    a projecting but tapered occiput, unlike the "Kokonform" or
    ellipsoid shape of the Central German and Austrian neolithic long-
    heads, either Corded or Danubian,or even the Aunjetitzer Nordids and
    thus also sharply distinctive from the ovoid skull of the West
    Mediterranid with narrow forehead and broadening occipital area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    I would say that high-headedness is about the only static trait in Eastern Europe. Everything else seems to be changing with each generation - stature, build, cephalic index, facial features, nose shape...

    For example, in my family, our grandfathers and great grandfathers were all short and extremely round headed and round faced, and mostly with snub noses. Our fathers were a bit taller, and longer faced, but still round headed. Myself and my cousins are all extremely tall, long faced and often long headed. Our noses are either straight or slightly convex. And the only thing that we have in common with our older generations are some facial features, which give us that hint of Polishness, and also the high heads. That's about it, because even the pigmentation is all different - sometimes blonder, sometimes more brunet.
    I see that exact pattern in my family as well,especially with my grandfather, father and myself. But that pattern always repeats itself, it has to, isn't that the way genes work?. You will always resemble someone from either you paternal or maternal side.

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    I find it difficult to accept that Nordic types are descended from Cro Magnon. The skeleton of Nordic types and Meds are very similiar yet you are implying they evolved in different environments. Plus, UP still exist. If there was some types of convergence to the gracile types, why do UP still exist?

    It seems more likely to me that Meds entered Europe from the Middle East during the Neolithic ~10,000 years ago. Here over a period of 5,000 years or so they became depigmented and also developed the proto IE languages. Then around 3,000 years ago they spread throughout Europe and parts of Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I find it difficult to accept that Nordic types are descended from Cro Magnon. The skeleton of Nordic types and Meds are very similiar yet you are implying they evolved in different environments. Plus, UP still exist. If there was some types of convergence to the gracile types, why do UP still exist?

    It seems more likely to me that Meds entered Europe from the Middle East during the Neolithic ~10,000 years ago. Here over a period of 5,000 years or so they became depigmented and also developed the proto IE languages. Then around 3,000 years ago they spread throughout Europe and parts of Asia.

    Actually, most Europeans are descendants of the original human populations that moved there 30-40,000 years ago from the south east.

    These people then gave rise to both thhe western Europeans and eastern Europeans (gene markers EU18 and EU19). And this is where the Nordics, Brunns, Borrebys, East Baltics, and many others came from.

    Very few Europeans are actually descendants of the later migrations from the south.

    There is absolutely no evidence that large numbers of Nordic types invaded from the east to find a Europe populated by UP types. No evidence whatsoever. Both the so called Nordics and UP types come from the one group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by providenje
    I see that exact pattern in my family as well,especially with my grandfather, father and myself. But that pattern always repeats itself, it has to, isn't that the way genes work?. You will always resemble someone from either you paternal or maternal side.

    No, because genes are inherited indpendetly of one another. So it doesn't follow that a convex nose has to accompany a long head, or whatever. You inherit genes from your ancestors, but the ones you get and the way they're expressed, due to living conditions and nevironment, is what counts. So the pattern may never repeat itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I find it difficult to accept that Nordic types are descended from Cro Magnon. The skeleton of Nordic types and Meds are very similiar yet you are implying they evolved in different environments. Plus, UP still exist. If there was some types of convergence to the gracile types, why do UP still exist?

    It seems more likely to me that Meds entered Europe from the Middle East during the Neolithic ~10,000 years ago. Here over a period of 5,000 years or so they became depigmented and also developed the proto IE languages. Then around 3,000 years ago they spread throughout Europe and parts of Asia.
    I would have loved to delve somewhat deeper in this matter, if I weren't preoccupied in ploughing and going through the absorbent but not quite absorbing task of compiling my notes which will lead to my endpaper for graduation next Summer.

    Please satisfy yourself with these main points:

    a. An unadultered derivation from any race from some hypothethical UP root race is very unlikely, and one sees usually atavism by chance recombination of recessive genes; as a rule the mendelian laws are applicable.
    And races are no fixed stars, but influenced by micro-evoultion, migratory expanse resulting to gene drift, mutation not due selective pressure due to environmental factors but by the intraracial variety on which natural selection ultimately is grounded on, etc...and last but least socio-cultural limitations like assortative mating.

    b.You should be close upon my heels, Gerard, I already explained in another thread that 1) most Meds derive from a Levantine Natufid source in the mesolithic, 2) their spread in Europe coincide with the arrival of the Impresso or Cardial Ware(6000BC-4800BC) and is limited to Illyria and the Latin parts of our continent.
    These people were Atlanto-Mediterreneans and contained possibly a brachycephalic, small-set and high-vaulted type, which was already known in the Nahal Oren site in Israel.
    Nordics did exist in Northern Europe long before their dispersal.

    c.No, UP survivors haven't endured the stress of Time; although "old genes have the habit of hanging as minorities"(C.S.Coon), in other words, their features recombined and modified have survived and are still best observed in "out-of-the-way"places.
    Besides, the UP races were highly variable in appearance, speciation hadn't occured yet and the European-Mongolid link hadn't broken up untill about 15000BC, while others, like the Capellids could be taken as Melanids, Veddids or Australids; since the Capellids are quothed with unreliable overestimation to be the root race of the Mediterranids, it's in my opinion not hypothethical that mesorhinity, darker pigmentation and limb proportion as well the overall equatorial sleekness in built and cranial dimensions must have been provided by these early pure lline or mixed Australids...
    With exception of the North Atlantids and Eurasian Steppes race, races acknowledged as UP, reduced or not, like the Paleo-Atlantids, Uralics, East Baltids and Lapps and finally, Alpines, have a totally different limbs confirmation than their ancestors, while, maybe with exception of the Predmost finds, Capellids and Cro Magnon were equatorial.
    Above mentioned races have today long arms and short legs, while Alpines are reduced in all extreminities.
    But none walks stooped unless by old age, Cro Magnon's carriage was a bit flexed.
    In general, most taxonomical elements which we ascribe to the UPs has a more ancient and "native" source, namely from Neanderthal man: frontal flattening, marked browridges, beaky noses(although the Krapina species may have had snubned noses),lambdoid flattening, pariental widening, bizygomatic breadth<cranial breath....

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    [QUOTE=cosmocreator]I find it difficult to accept that Nordic types are descended from Cro Magnon.


    Well, what about the Dalo-Nordid or Faelid race then with its characteristic pentagonoid contour of its head which is a strong reminder of Cro Magnon influence, or the Corded/East Nordics parallelling the ellipsoid shape of the so-called Eastern Cromagnids from the Predmost and Mladec deposits? With exception of one very archaic, neanderthaloid specimen, these were despite mesoprosopy had narrowish facial breadth, which often lie beneath the Nordic average mean of 135mm.

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    Frans, your level is far above mine. I do think Falish is derived from Cro Magnon though. I just started reading The Origin of Races by Coon. It never occurred to me that the different races of man could have different origins -- that they became separate before Homo Sapien existed. It is interesting idea. And I think all the more reason why race-mixing is wrong.

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    Post How Long Have Nordics Existed As A Race?

    How Long Have Nordics Existed As A Race?

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