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Thread: Classify Johann Sebastian Bach

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    Post Classify Johann Sebastian Bach

    Because of the overwhelming number of responses I received in my previous thread about Antonio Vivaldi, the master of the Italian Baroque, I have decided to start a thread about his peer, the master of the German Baroque.

    If you're willing to be one among many -The Red Priest

    Here are some of the Bach portraits. Only the first is absolutely authentic.
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    Last edited by Edwin; Monday, June 27th, 2005 at 11:47 PM.

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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Hurray - I found something about his skull!!!!

    Bach's skull

    "one of which contained the almost perfect skeleton of an elderly male, well proportioned, not large of stature, with massive skull, receding forehead, shallow eye-sockets, and heavy jaws."
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Alpinid with Dinarid and Nordid admixture probably going after the picture.

    The skull looks mostly robust Nordid/Nordid-Dalofaelid with possible Dinarid and Alpinid admixture...
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    When I see frontally the skull I think shows Dalofaelid characteres but if I see the skull profile I can see Dinaric admixture quite clear. The nose has a high nasal profile and the sloping jaw can be Dinaric too, the dolicocephalic shape of course is not Dinaric and Dalofaelids are mesocephalics or braquicephalics, so the only option is Nordic strain.

    I guess is Dalofaelid/Dinaric with Nordic admixture. Again excelent musician with Dinaric blood.
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    "With the miscegenation vary as much the form as the essence of the nations".
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Quote Originally Posted by visigodo
    When I see frontally the skull I think shows Dalofaelid characteres but if I see the skull profile I can see Dinaric admixture quite clear. The nose has a high nasal profile and the sloping jaw can be Dinaric too, the dolicocephalic shape of course is not Dinaric and Dalofaelids are mesocephalics or braquicephalics, so the only option is Nordic strain.

    I guess is Dalofaelid/Dinaric with Nordic admixture. Again excelent musician with Dinaric blood.
    I agree with you mostly, about Bach's type, but not about Falian skulls. SNPA has it wrong apparently, and the Falian skull is in fact quite dolichocephalic, more so than the other Cro-Magnids on average. There was an article about it online, but I don't have the link.

    Some would have this be because the Falian is more traditionally Cro-Magnid than the others, but I personally believe it the result of the recombination of some Borreby stock. The Brünns and Borrebies have more brachicephalic skulls, but they are larger than the Falian on average. Therefore, the Falian must have some Nordic at a low level which is causing the recombination somehow

    There were certainly many composers with Dinaric blood. You're right. Even the most celebrated of the Germanic composers, Richard Wagner, had a great amount of it

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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett
    I agree with you mostly, about Bach's type, but not about Falian skulls. SNPA has it wrong apparently, and the Falian skull is in fact quite dolichocephalic, more so than the other Cro-Magnids on average. There was an article about it online, but I don't have the link.

    Some would have this be because the Falian is more traditionally Cro-Magnid than the others, but I personally believe it the result of the recombination of some Borreby stock. The Brünns and Borrebies have more brachicephalic skulls, but they are larger than the Falian on average. Therefore, the Falian must have some Nordic at a low level which is causing the recombination somehow

    There were certainly many composers with Dinaric blood. You're right. Even the most celebrated of the Germanic composers, Richard Wagner, had a great amount of it
    Thanks for you comments.

    Frankly speaking I would like to say that I have not clear idea, in fact in some books I found that they can be dolicocephalics, mesocephalics and braquicephalics probably depend of the mixture. But I think that the dolicocephalics are because they have some Nordic admixture, in fact in some areas Nordics and Dalofaelids are very mixed. I add some information about this race that you can find in internet and also three differents Dalofaelid skulls with different cephalic index.

    Regarding the musicians with Dinaric blood I think at least Chopin, Cherubini, Haydn, Mozart, Weber, Listz, Verdi, Wagner, Bruckner and now I realize Bach (probably there are more) have strong Dinaric characters


    The Phalian Race




    There are some important comments on the "Fälish" issue that I would like to make, and which, I believe, may clear-up a few points. Whilst reviewing the SNPA site, and the works of Hans F. K. Günther, I discovered a series of errors surrounding the concept of what constitutes Fälish. Firstly, the meaning of the term:
    Etymology: The name Fälish, coined by Günther, derives from "Fälen", German for "plain".





    This statement is incorrect. Whilst the meaning of the word is correctly given, its derivation is not. Günther (1934; 1938) stated quite specifically that the term "Fälish" (fälische Rasse), derived from Westfalen (Westphalia). Günther believed that this particular type was rather common in the German province of Westphalia, hence the name. Incidentally, the correct English name for this type would be "Phalian". Günther's term derives from Westfalen (Westphalia), a person who comes from that part of Germany is called Westphalian (Westfälische), in English. Therefore, fälische once translated, is Phalian. The next error is this statement:
    Other names: Dalo-Nordic (Paudler; from Dalarne)





    Paudler (1924) did indeed employ the term "Dalic" (dalische Typus), but the name "Dalo-Nordic" (dalo-nordische Unterrasse) was used by von Eickstedt (1934).
    Description: The pigmentation of the Fälish group is as light as that of any Nordic population. The hair is typically golden blond, the eyes blue.





    Günther thought that reddish-blond hair and grey eyes were more common amongst people belonging to the Phalian type.
    Origin: Iron Age Hallstatt Nordic altered by mixture with Upper Palaeolithic Borreby elements (or vice versa); a stabilized intermediate.





    Whilst it is clear that such hybrid types do indeed exist, a name other than "Fälish" should be found for them. According to Paudler (1924), Kern (1927), von Eickstedt (1934) and Günther (1934; 1938), the Fälische/Dalische type was a relatively unaltered Cro-Magnon descendant. Granting the nomenclature of "Fälish" to this hybrid group is therefore highly misleading. Now here, we arrive at the chief element of confusion:
    Description: The short-headedness of the Borreby type carries over in some degree to the Fälish, which is typically sub-brachycephalic and not seldom brachycephalic.



    According to all of the authorities previously cited, the Phalian type is long-headed. Günther states that the Phalian type is akin to Cro-Magnon man, and is distinguished by the following features: tall stature, a broad and powerfully-built body (in contrast with the slender and more delicately-built Nordic), a broad face, a large lower jaw, a moderately broad nose, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic skull, fair complexion, reddish-blond hair and blue or grey eyes. Günther's fälische Rasse is thus roughly equivalent to the SNPA Brünn type. Confusion seems to have arisen from the fact that Paudler (1924) stated that Cro-Magnon types could be found in abundance in the Swedish province of Dalarne. In fact, according to Günther (1934), the people of that area are mostly narrow-faced, rather than being broad-faced long heads. They are thus not truly Phalian. Instead, he declares that they are largely Nordic and East Baltic in type; they are probably part Borreby as well. Because Günther thought that the Phalian type was uncommon in Dalarne, but quite common in Westphalia, he named the type "fälische".

    In any case, I hope that this has resolved the contradictions and errors that have surrounded the term "Fälish".

    SOURCES

    Günther, H. F. K. (1934) Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes (Munich: J. F. Lehmann).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1938) Kleine Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes (Munich & Berlin: J. F. Lehmann).

    Kern, F. (1927) Stammbaum und Artbild der Deutschen und ihrer Verwandten (Munich: J. F. Lehmann).

    Paudler, F. (1924) Die hellfarbigen Rassen und ihre Sprachstämme, Kulturen und Urheimaten (Heidelberg: Carl Winter). von Eickstedt, E. (1934) Rassenkunde und Rassengeschichte der Menschheit (Stuttgart: Ferdinand Enke).
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Real Dalofaelids/Bruenn types are dolicho- to mesocephalic like the original Cromagnids. Cromagnoid types with broad faces have a certain tendency to brachycephalisation though with the result of Borreby/Nordalpinoid variants and similar tendencies in the South.
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Cro-Magnoids were (extremely) long-headed and relatively short-faced. The cranial vault was flattened. The same low vault was found among the Friterpians. Friterpians were more Nordid than the Groterpians, who were mostly of the higher-skulled and shorter-skulled Reihengräber type.

    The Borreby skull show a flattened occiput and a high vault, which is unlike the description of a Phalian.

    Brachycephalism is more modern. Continental Europe is going through a process of debrachycephalisation.

    I think that Dieter Bohlen is a good example of a Phalian.


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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    The debrachycephalisation is mostly environmental and secular, the Alpinisation involved more features and is not stopped.
    Furthermore its true that the HLI of Borreby and Dalofaelid is contrarian, but on the other hand they have many features in common either and the distribution is related either.
    I dont think like Lundman that the HLI is so stable and important, though he is more stable and important than many other features...
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    Post Re: Johann Sebastian Bach

    Quote Originally Posted by visigodo
    Thanks for you comments.

    Frankly speaking I would like to say that I have not clear idea, in fact in some books I found that they can be dolicocephalics, mesocephalics and braquicephalics probably depend of the mixture. But I think that the dolicocephalics are because they have some Nordic admixture, in fact in some areas Nordics and Dalofaelids are very mixed. I add some information about this race that you can find in internet and also three differents Dalofaelid skulls with different cephalic index.
    Thanks for posting this. I lost it a few months ago. Reading it again, and the following posts, has cleared me up a bit. Though, the smaller size of the Falian relative to the Brünn and Borreby is still an issue for me. Sure there are many massive examples, but one really doesn't see them in a regular colossiform like the others. Why is this?

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