View Poll Results: How was the Dinaric Sub-race derived in your opinion?

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  • Stabilized Alpine-Mediterranean Blend

    43 30.50%
  • A "sister race" of the Armenoid/Near-Eastern type

    56 39.72%
  • Other (please state)

    42 29.79%
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Thread: How Was the Dinaric Sub-Race Derived ?

  1. #81
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by fms panzerfaust
    My opinion is: dinaric is dinaric, and nothing more. They're not a mixing of alpine with med, but a distinct type.
    Yes, I think they are as distinct a type as any other, definitely not a 'process' in my opinion.

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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    According to Cavalli-Sforza, who did a dendrogram of genetic distances between populations, Yugoslavia is only slightly closer to the majority of Europeans than to West Asians. This can be interpreted as decreasing admixture from Neolithic farmers moving into Europe.
    The study where "Yugoslavia"(Serbia and Montenegro) was sampled is outdated, since old nomenclature was used , namely super haplogroup HG2, which was not further divided and encompassed Paleolithic I* together with Neolithic groups.

    But because only certtain loci affect the racial features racial typology uses below the major race or subspecies of man, and are subject to local conditions, local race cant be predicted precisely by looking at parental lineages or even the genetic distances between populations.

    There are UP types in the Balkans as far south as Greece, so I imagine it depends which populations are being sampled. The farmers wouuld have preferred the best land in the lowlands, and the more mountainous regions would be left to hunter-gatherers, who later adopted pastoralism.
    I agree that Y-chromosome doesn't affect the racial features per se,
    but assertion was made that Neolithic immigrants affected pre-Neolithic population which produced Dinaric sub-race.
    Which is hard for me to believe since Dinaric zone displays absence of Neolithic markers.

  3. #83
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by White Falcon
    The study where "Yugoslavia"(Serbia and Montenegro) was sampled is outdated, since old nomenclature was used , namely super haplogroup HG2, which was not further divided and encompassed Paleolithic I* together with Neolithic groups.
    This wasnt about parental haplogroups, it was about the genetic distances.

  4. #84
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Yes, I think they are as distinct a type as any other, definitely not a 'process' in my opinion.
    I agree. Anyway, in conclusion, imo, there are THREE possible explainations to Dinarid formation :


    1) UP-Borreby + Atlanto-Med

    2) Nordic + Taurid

    3) Distinct, independent origin from any other group ("original" type, without connections with other types)


    NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case. Not Armenoid.

  5. #85
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Agreeable, I'm certainly not Dinaric.

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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger
    I agree. Anyway, in conclusion, imo, there are THREE possible explainations to Dinarid formation :


    1) UP-Borreby + Atlanto-Med

    2) Nordic + Taurid

    3) Distinct, independent origin from any other group ("original" type, without connections with other types)


    NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case. Not Armenoid.
    What do you think about this? ------

    Taurid + Cro-Magnoid (usually Borreby or Alpinoid) = true Dinarid

    Taurid + Cro-Magnoid + Mediterranid or Nordid = common Dinarid

    In this scheme, the third component, be it Mediterranean or Nordic, is not required in the formation of Dinaric stock. And if it is present, it is never dominant. With Mediterranid, the individual might be called Sudinarid, and with Nordid, rightly called Nordinarid. We lack a term for the former, and the use of Noric for the latter is improper
    Last edited by Edwin; Monday, July 11th, 2005 at 07:10 AM.

  7. #87
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger
    NOT Alpinid + Mediterranean in any case.
    Neithertheless is the difference between Alpinid and Dinarid in Southern Germany rather fluent. Both of them have a Dalofaelid affinity (and some Dalofaelids look more like an Alpinid-Nordid-Dinarid blend) so Dinarid admixture of the Alpinids doesn't have to mean that Alpinids created the Dinarid by simple admixture. Coon was at least right that these phenotypes occur at the same places. The local Dinarids share many facial traits with the local Alpinids but also have a more convex nose, flatter occiput, more compressed clear-cut facial structure, different hair-texture and sometimes brownish skin with a tendency to thin wrinkles. The SW German Dinarics don't have Baltic features like bulging cheekbones, high vaults, heavy jaws, broad full lips, elevated eyebrows, chubby noses etc. Also many of the old people here (mostly Alpinids) have rather coarse large facial features with a still harmoniously protruding mouth region and teeth that resemble pebbles, which I would attribute to a variant of Coon's Bruenn strain that he saw there, just the facial relief is not so present.

    What stands out from both Alpinids and Dinarids are the Scando-Nordids, which still look like they came right away from Scandinavia, albeit shorter in height and more gracile, regardless of the typical features and depigmention being present. Maybe this is the reason Coon called the SW Germans the "most Nordid of all" and he also had a fine-boned Osterdal Nordid in Norway.

    The first figure of this plate by the anthropologist István Kiszely is a very good example of a Dinarid:


    Guenther's examples of Dinarid, scanned by Agrippa:



    Many pictures of Balkan dwellers and Dinarics:
    http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=3476&page=2

    I downloaded most images of Serbians from this site with a tool ('Offline Explorer' is similar):
    http://default.co.yu/~bc/slk/IBG/

    Croats:
    http://www.glas-koncila.hr/galerije/...album=3&page=1

    Southern Croatian students, from near Dubrovnik:
    http://www.matura-hr.com/generacija2.../4e/index.html
    Northern Croatian students, from near the border with Hungary:
    http://www.matura-hr.com/generacija2.../4b/index.html

    Photos of Alpinids and Dinarids from my region, I shot most of them few days ago when I took pictures of my mother's choir (she leads it just as the jogging rally was ran by her for almost two decades):
    http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8871/dsc000253op.jpg
    http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/7681/dsc000103sr.jpg
    http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7397/dsc000060aw.jpg
    http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8271/dsc000312vd.jpg
    http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/384...blingen3ua.jpg
    http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9...ttgart31vi.jpg
    http://img275.echo.cx/img275/8403/stuttgart14ss.jpg
    http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9...ttgart12yi.jpg
    http://img81.echo.cx/img81/6832/swgermany1wb.jpg

    More Paleo-Atlantid:
    http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6606/0hbinlaw7vu.jpg
    Last edited by Gareth; Monday, July 11th, 2005 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #88
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Neithertheless is the difference between Alpinid and Dinarid in Southern Germany rather fluent. Both of them have a Dalofaelid affinity (and some Dalofaelids look more like an Alpinid-Nordid-Dinarid blend) so Dinarid admixture of the Alpinids doesn't have to mean that Alpinids created the Dinarid by simple admixture. Coon was at least right that these phenotypes occur at the same places. The local Dinarids share many facial traits with the local Alpinids but also have a more convex nose, flatter occiput, more compressed clear-cut facial structure, different hair-texture and sometimes brownish skin with a tendency to thin wrinkles. The SW German Dinarics don't have Baltic features like bulging cheekbones, high vaults, horizontal grooves running along the nose, heavy jaws, broad full lips, elevated eyebrows, chubby noses etc.
    Yes, i agree with you less or more. Surely, Southern Germany (you're from there i suppose) shows a deep phenomenon of fusion between Alpinid tipology and Dinaroid one. Plus a general Nordic influence on the phenotype.

    Yes, the difference between Alpinid and dinarid in southern Germany is fluent, but this doesn't necessarly mean that they share a common origin. Perhaps, their mixing in the area, is rather recent

  9. #89
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger
    Yes, i agree with you less or more. Surely, Southern Germany (you're from there i suppose) shows a deep phenomenon of fusion between Alpinid tipology and Dinaroid one. Plus a general Nordic influence on the phenotype.

    Yes, the difference between Alpinid and dinarid in southern Germany is fluent, but this doesn't necessarly mean that they share a common origin. Perhaps, their mixing in the area, is rather recent
    Alpinids and Mongolids share the neoteny that led to relative brachycephaly but Mongoloids show a clear tendency to flat occiputs (not only, curvy variants are also found, possibly more frequently too).

    And again, I don't believe in "philosophic" interpretations of Mediterranean admixture in Mongoloids leading to a darkening of skin-tone or nasal convexity, even in Eskimos. They have their own spectrum and had time enough to develop such inner-racial differences.

    It's less certain how much the Dinarid is a result of admixture or a selective process. Possibly both on the long run.

    For the matter of comparison, some partially Dinaricized Irishmen:


  10. #90
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    Post Re: Dinarics

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    It's less certain how much the Dinarid is a result of admixture or a selective process. Possibly both on the long run.

    For the matter of comparison, some partially Dinaricized Irishmen:




    The second pic fits very well with the concept.

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