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Thread: There is no such thing as the Nordid race !

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    Post There is no such thing as the Nordid race !

    First of all, there is no such thing as the Nordid race. Nordics are simply a phenotype seen in all Caucasoid populations. It is more common in some areas because the physical traits needed to create this phenotype are more commonly seen there - and that's how yuo get phenotypes, the comong together of various, usually unrelated, physical characteritsics.

    There is no Nordic gene. In other words, Nordics in Russia are more closely related to Russian Alpines than to English Nordics.

    Moroever, there was no great Indo-European invasion of Europe that brought a wave of Nordics to the northwest.

    Europeans entered the continent about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago. These people are the ancestrors of most Europeans today, and even some American Indians.

    Another wave, of secondary importance, came from the Middle East, and mostly affected southern Europe.

    A wide variety of phenotypes have come out of these original Europeans - from Nordics to Mediterraneans to Alpines. Their expression has been dependant on natural and social selection, as well as living conditions.

    There was, hoever, a very important event which affected the European gene pool right up to this day, and that was the Ice Age.

    It split the aboriginal Europeans in about three groups - one in the west, another in the Balkans, and yet another one in the Ukraine.

    The groups remained isolated long enough from one another to develop certain genetic and phenotypic characteristics. The far western group, for instance, developed the gene marker EU18, while the easterners EU19 (or HG3, or R1a).

    Another important division which arose was culture. While the westerners expanded quietly after the Ice Age retreated - the easterners were a lot more vigorous. This vigor mainly came from their mobility from domesticating the horse.

    Bands of these easterners, known as the Kurgan people, then spread out east and west, taking their culture and language with them. This was the Indo-European conquest of western Europe and western and southwestern Asia. It brought massive changes to the world, but more so culturally than genetically.

    Most of the proto-Indo-Europeans actually remained on the steppes, and then transformed into the Slavs. Under that guise they again expanded, pushing as far west as the Danish border, and as far east as the Californian coast.

    Today, the gene marker EU19 (HG3) is most common in the Slavs of Central Eastern Europe, the Hungarians, who are mostly Slavic genetically, and the highest casts in India and Pakistan.

    It is also seen in Norway and Sweden in fair proportions, but extremely rare in western Europe.

    Further to that, the Slavs are actually a lot more similar than the odl anthropologists have claimed.

    Poles, Russians and Ukrainians are almost identical to each other. Others, like the Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Serbs are not far behind. These groups all seem to have only some foreign admixture in them.

    The Czechs seem to be the most "western" group in terms of genotype, but they're also very similar to the other Slavs.

    The only group that really stands out are the Bulgarians, who seem to be more southern European than Slavic.

    So in light of recent genetgic tests, the attempts to divide most Slavs into East Baltic, Dinaric and whatever else groups makes no sense.

    Such phenotypical differences are now disappearing due to changes in living conditions. For example, very tall stature is now common amongst young people in all Slavic lands. In many cases, the youngsters are 10-15 cm taller than their grandparents and even parents.

    Head shapes are also changing. Dolichocephalic and mesochephalic head forms are becoming much more common. The Slavs started becoming round-headed en masse when their populations began moving into towns and cities during the middle ages. That process now seems to be reversing, and that actually seems to be happening all over Europe.

    To sum up, it's generally very difficult to divide Europeans into races, even though some phenotypes are much more common in some regions than in others. Five broad categories can be seen:

    Western Europeans: Spain, Portugal, France, UK, Ireland, Belgium, Holland, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic.

    Eastern Europeans: Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Serbia, Croatia, Austria, Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania.

    Southern Europe: Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Bulgaria.

    And the Lapps form the fourth group. They're quite isolated from other Europeans due to their high frequency of Mongol genes, and that's despite mixing quite a bit with Norwegians and Swedes.

    On a final note, just an interesting obeservation. There seems to be some evidence of a relationship between Slavs and Scandinavians.

    For example, analysis of PC groups shows us that Slovenians and Swedes are fairly close. The same can be said of Poles and Gotlanders - in fact, the Poles are closer to Gotlanders than they are to Germans with who thet share a border (see attachment).

    Very recent Y-chromosome and mtDNA studies also show that Norwegians are very close to Czechs and Croatians.

    Here is some background information to back up my claims in this post:

    "Debrachycephalization of Croatians
    Secular change in body height and cephalic index of Croatian medical students (University of Rijeka)
    Alena Bureti-Tomljanovi et al.
    Abstract

    An investigation of body height and cephalic measurements was performed among five groups of first-year medical students of the University of Rijeka School of Medicine (Rijeka, Croatia). Body height and different cephalic measurements showed normal distribution, both in male and female students. Differences between measured variables were statistically analyzed by ANOVA. No significant difference with regard to year of birth was found in either males or females. The cephalic index showed no statistically significant difference between sexes or with regard to body height, while head breadth and length correlated significantly with birth year and body height, both in males and females. Head breadth decreased within the study period, while head length increased. Results were compared with those of similar studies from the mid-20th century. Student's t-test showed a significant change of cephalic indices and other head measurements, but not of body height, in males. The frequency difference between various head shapes was tested using the chi-square test. A significant increase of dolichocephalic and mesocephalic and a significant decrease of brachycephalic head shape were found in both sexes. These results suggest a continuity of the debrachycephalization process observed in our population at the past midcentury. Am J Phys Anthropol 2003. © 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc."


    Ancient links between Slavs and Indian Aryans...

    http://www.niagara.com/~jezovnik/for...ti_part_ii.htm


    The Indo-European expansion...

    "The current distribution of the M17 haplotype is likely to represent traces of an ancient population migration originating in southern Russia/Ukraine, where M17 is found at high frequency (over 50%). It is possible that the domestication of the horse in this region around 3,000 B.C. may have driven the migration. The distribution and age of M17 in Europe and Central/South Asia is consistent with the inferred movements of these people, who left a clear pattern of archeological remains known as the Kurgan culture, and are thought to have spoken an early Indo-European language. The decrease in frequency eastward across Siberia to the Altai-Sayan mountains and Mongolia, and southward into India, overlaps exactly with the inferred migrations of the Indo-Iranians during the period 3,000 to 1,000 BC. It is worth noting that the Indo-European speaking Sourashtrans, a population from Tamil Nadu in southern India, have a much higher frequency of M17 than their Dravidian speaking neighbors, the Yadhavas and Kallars (39% versus 13% and 4%), adding to the evidence that M17 is a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker. Intriguingly, the population of present day Iran, speaking a major Indo-European language (Farsi), appears to have had little genetic influence from M17 carrying Indo-Iranians. It is possible that the pre-Indo-European population of Iran - effectively an eastern extension of the great civilizations of Mesopotamia - may have reached a sufficient population density to have swamped any genetic contribution from a small number of immigrating Indo-Iranians. If so, this may have been a case of language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model. Alternatively, an Indo-Iranian language may have been the lingua franca of the steppe nomads and the surrounding settled populations, facilitating communication between the two. Over time, this language could have become the predominant language in Persia, reinforced and standardized by rulers such as Cyrus the Great and Darius in the mid-first millennium BC. Whichever model is correct, the Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern populations than they are to Central Asians or Indians. This finding contrasts with a recent analysis of Eastern Iranian populations, which have high frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroup 3, defined by the M17 analogue SRY-1532A."

    More information about the distribution of HG3 (EU19)...

    http://website.lineone.net/~usenet_e...e/gene_legacy/


    Comparison of the genetic profiles of Russians and Iranians...

    "Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Populations of Iran, Turkmenistan and Southern Russia
    B. A. Malyarchuk1, M. V. Derenko1, G. A. Denisova1, E. I. Rogaev2, I. A. Zakharov3
    1Institute of Biological Problems of the North; Magadan, Russian Federation; 2Center of Mental Health; Moscow, Russian Federation; 3Vavilov Institute of General Genetics; Moscow, Russian Federation
    ibpn@online.magadan.su
    Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) polymorphism in populations of Iran, Turkmenistan and southern part of Russia was examined by RFLP analysis of haplogroup-specific sites. The Iranians, Turkmenians and Russians were found to have a large portion of mtDNAs belonging to haplogroups observed in West Eurasian populations. However, the relative frequencies of this continental fraction of the mtDNA pool vary considerably over the populations studied. In Iranians and Turkmenians, the majority of the mtDNA lineages belong to haplogroups T, J, U, K, W, I. However, haplogroup H, which encompasses 19% of Turkmenian and 42% of Russian mtDNAs, is virtually absent in Iranians. The East Asian-specific fractions of mtDNAs were observed in 12% of Iranians (haplogroups M*, D, A, B) and in 20% of Turkmenians (haplogroups C, D, E), but were not found in the Russian mtDNA pool. Therefore, the Russians exhibited a high portion of identical haplotypes in relation to those observed in other Europeans. Based on the mtDNA haplogroups composition analysis, the Turkmenians were found to be the closest population to the Caucasus populations. This work was supported by the Russian Fund for Basic Research (grant 00-06-80448) and the State Program «Frontiers in Genetics» (grant 99-4-30)."


    Finally, an analysis of PC groups that shows the relationship between various European populations (see attachment - sadly, I couldn't put in the other parts of the graph, which were also pretty interesting, because the file was too big that way)...
    Last edited by Polak; Sunday, July 13th, 2003 at 06:07 AM.

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    Hear that, those of you unhappy with your cephalic index? - move to a smaller city if you want to become dolichocephalic... :think

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    Greetings Polak,

    I have read some of your posts at Stormfront, too. They seem biased.

    Originally posted by Polak
    First of all, there is no such thing as the Nordid race. Nordics are simply a phenotype seen in all Caucasoid populations.
    Yeah? Is that right? ani

    It is more common in some areas because the physical traits needed to create this phenotype are more commonly seen there - and that's how yuo get phenotypes, the comong together of various, usually unrelated, physical characteritsics.
    How very logical of you... this paragraph makes no sense at all if you look at it reasonably. Like saying "it is more common here because it is more common here..." almost like a Bushism if you ask me.

    There is no Nordic gene. In other words, Nordics in Russia are more closely related to Russian Alpines than to English Nordics.
    That is probably because some of the ones you call "Russian Nordics" are nothing like the ones to be found in Scandinavia and England. I have seen pictures that your buddy Ross have posted....

    Moroever, there was no great Indo-European invasion of Europe that brought a wave of Nordics to the northwest.
    Genetic studies prove otherwise. For example, The HG3 marker, which is very common amongst Slavs, Scandinavians and Pakistanis, is probably an Indo-European marker that shows its spread and expansion - both to the east and to west from its original Ukrainian domain. This marker has even reached the British Isles, mostly through the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions.

    Bands of these easterners, known as the Kurgan people, then spread out east and west, taking their culture and language with them. This was the Indo-European conquest of western Europe and western and southwestern Asia. It brought massive changes to the world, but more so culturally than genetically.

    Most of the proto-Indo-Europeans actually remained on the steppes, and then transformed into the Slavs. Under that guise they again expanded, pushing as far west as the Danish border, and as far east as the Californian coast.
    The Kurgans were proto-IE, you got that bit right. But they were not "easterners" as you claim. And not all the I.E. turned into Slavs. Some turned into Germanics, and yet others into Balts. Some (Aryans) went east and got absorbed in the local Pakistani/Indian populations. Latest research indicates that the Indo-Iranian population has lost just about all its IE genetic material, and that its IE language was but a lingua franca, adopted by the indigenous Middle Eastern populace.

    Today, the gene marker EU19 (HG3) is most common in the Slavs of Central Eastern Europe, the Hungarians, who are mostly Slavic genetically, and the highest casts in India and Pakistan.

    It is also seen in Norway and Sweden in fair proportions, but extremely rare in western Europe.


    Actually, this gene marker is most common in the people of Kashmir. by your logic, we can conclude that all Slavs are Indians.

    It is not "extremely rare" in western Europe. Germany has a fair proportion, and so has eastern England. Surprisingly, in Denmark and Holland it is more rare.

    Poles, Russians and Ukrainians are almost identical to each other. Others, like the Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Serbs are not far behind. These groups all seem to have only some foreign admixture in them.
    This is no new revelation.

    Such phenotypical differences are now disappearing due to changes in living conditions. For example, very tall stature is now common amongst young people in all Slavic lands. In many cases, the youngsters are 10-15 cm taller than their grandparents and even parents.


    Stature has increased all over the Western world, too. It is the result of better nutrition, mostly.

    Head shapes are also changing. Dolichocephalic and mesochephalic head forms are becoming much more common. The Slavs started becoming round-headed en masse when their populations began moving into towns and cities during the middle ages. That process now seems to be reversing, and that actually seems to be happening all over Europe.
    I would love to see this backed up by independent anthropological study. Can you provide some sources please?

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    polaks opinons = :toilet

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    greetings,

    Originally posted by Polak
    First of all, there is no such thing as the Nordid race. Nordics are simply a phenotype seen in all Caucasoid populations.
    ------this is depigmentation what you speak about. it is not the nordic or the nordic phenotype, which is obscure and you depend on this obscurity. this depigmentetion is shown under exotic nordics session of of a website (i want to express my gratitudes)


    There is no Nordic gene. In other words, Nordics in Russia are more closely related to Russian Alpines than to English Nordics.

    ----i would agree there is no nordic gene or mongoloid gene. higher caste indians are closer to paryas and russian nordics are closer to any other russian for they have lived with each other not with cornish islanders. as you expressed genes are not transmitted with the same ratios and mithocondrial and sex genes may or may not overlap with somatic genes beacuse of purely coincidental gene exchange between chromosomes during meiosis. many russians are half mongoloid and they use the genes to prove that they are not mongoloid but this is not consistent.



    Bands of these easterners, known as the Kurgan people, then spread out east and west, taking their culture and language with them. This was the Indo-European conquest of western Europe and western and southwestern Asia. It brought massive changes to the world, but more so culturally than genetically.

    Most of the proto-Indo-Europeans actually remained on the steppes, and then transformed into the Slavs. Under that guise they again expanded, pushing as far west as the Danish border, and as far east as the Californian coast.
    -----kurgan people are not nordic they remotely resemble an alpinid beacuse they have gone under an alpinization process they are tuarids who are many times semimongoloid. (that is why they are thought to be alpinized) that is the secret of why alpins and dinarics were cathegorized under the same group to indoeuropeanize them. of course there are dolichocephals in the kurgans who belong to an earlier phase the neolithic expansion who are closer to a saharid, so without any proof about depigmentation they are thought to be nordics again this is incosistent.



    Today, the gene marker EU19 (HG3) is most common in the Slavs of Central Eastern Europe, the Hungarians, who are mostly Slavic genetically, and the highest casts in India and Pakistan.

    It is also seen in Norway and Sweden in fair proportions, but extremely rare in western Europe.
    -----yes now tell me that these two HGs are different and i will think that i am haunted, hg3 have nothing with depigmentation in fact. many indians are as pure as many nordics this is just that some are dpigmented some are not. but it is a good thing that you agree that indians (north indians they are persianized or mongolized) are from the same family with slavs.




    Poles, Russians and Ukrainians are almost identical to each other. Others, like the Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Serbs are not far behind. These groups all seem to have only some foreign admixture in them.

    -----no, many russians are semimongoloid. now please do not show me genetical maps i think we agreed that there is no racial gene. serbs are half iranic vernadsky clearly stated that. dormitor is different, dinarics are an offspring of iranoafgan and they are in fact no more crowded than a few millions the dinaricization we sometimes observe may have come from any source beacuse brachycephaly or beak noses are common traits of asiatic cromagnon.



    Head shapes are also changing. Dolichocephalic and mesochephalic head forms are becoming much more common. The Slavs started becoming round-headed en masse when their populations began moving into towns and cities during the middle ages. That process now seems to be reversing, and that actually seems to be happening all over Europe.
    ----interesting this is in fact the depigmented iranoafgans iranians indians you are talking about. it is not a dolichocephalization process. just that iranoafgan, indians who are depigmented are more around. they are around baltics may be after baltic states are more free you see them more around.
    best regards
    Last edited by Loki; Sunday, July 13th, 2003 at 04:06 PM.

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    Post Welcome to PE Polak!

    It split the aboriginal Europeans in about three groups - one in the west, another in the Balkans, and yet another one in the Ukraine.
    Respectively thats hg 1, hg 2, hg 3. Correct?


    Poles, Russians and Ukrainians are almost identical to each other. Others, like the Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Serbs are not far behind. These groups all seem to have only some foreign admixture in them.
    Interesting...

    How do the North Slavs relate to the Balts and Finns?


    There is no Nordic gene. In other words, Nordics in Russia are more closely related to Russian Alpines than to English Nordics.
    Again, very interesting.

    Perhaps this accounts for the various phenotypes that exist in each haplogroup. It is clear from looking at the distribution of hg 1 (eu18) that the haplogroup encompasses a variety of phenotypes (anything from the Nordic Brunn to the Atlanto-Mediterranean), the same is true for hg 2 ( Halstatt + Dinaric), as well as hg 3 (Battle Axe + Pontic?).

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    Yeah? Is that right? This is pure nonsense.
    Perhaps you should try and get your head around it. It's pure logic if you know anything about genetics.


    That is probably because some of the ones you call "Russian Nordics" are nothing like the ones to be found in Scandinavia and England. I have seen pictures that your buddy Ross has posted....
    Who cares what Ross posts? Nordics in Russia are not genetically closer to Nordics in England than they are to local Alpines or whatever. if you don't grasp the sigificance of that, then that's your problem.


    Genetic studies prove otherwise. For example, The HG3 marker, which is very common amongst Slavs, Scandinavians and Pakistanis, is probably an Indo-European marker that shows its spread and expansion - both to the east and to west from its original Ukrainian domain. This marker has even reached the British Isles, mostly through the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions.
    No they don't.

    HG3 reaches only about 20-30% in Scandinavia, and about 5% in the UK. You think that's high?

    It's as high as 56.4% in PolandON AVERAGE - only SELECTED castes in India can beat that figure. Try again.


    It's also rare in most of Germany (except where Slavs lived), Holland, Denmark, Belgium. See a pattern there?



    The Kurgans were proto-IE, you got that bit right. But they were not "easterners" as you claim. And not all the I.E. turned into Slavs. Some turned into Germanics, and yet others into Balts. Some (Aryans) went east and got absorbed in the local Pakistani/Indian populations. Latest research indicates that the Indo-Iranian population has lost just about all its IE genetic material, and that its IE language was but a lingua franca, adopted by the indigenous Middle Eastern populace.

    No, the Kurgans did not turn into Germanics or Celtics. These people don't carry much HG3, so there's no proof of that at all.

    Do you have any evidence on the contrary? I would like to see it.


    Actually, this gene marker is most common in the people of Kashmir. by your logic, we can conclude that all Slavs are Indians.

    It is not "extremely rare" in western Europe. Germany has a fair proportion, and so has eastern England. Surprisingly, in Denmark and Holland it is more rare.

    Dear, dear...only the higher castes in Kashmir have high levels of HG3. The whole population does not. And like I said, only Germans with Slavic blood have high levels of HG3 (Eastern Germany).

    Here's an interesting quote:

    "A close affinity, based on Y chromosome, has been reported between Hindi speaking (Aryan) Indians and Europeans (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Bamshad has gone a step further and compared the affinities between the castes and also between the Europeans. He has found that the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank; the upper castes being most similar to Europeans particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. The lower castes, on the other hand, are more similar to Asians. For this comparison, Eastern European samples from Russia and Romania were used (Bamshad et al. 2001)."


    What don't you understand about that? Would you like me to explain it in more detail to you?


    I would love to see this backed up by independent anthropological study. Can you provide some sources please?
    Similar research has also been carried out in other parts of Europe, like Sardinia:

    "Anthropometric changes in urban Sardinian children 7 to 10 years between 1975-1976 and 1996.

    Sanna E, Soro MR.

    Universita degli Studi di Cagliari, Dipartimento di Biologia Sperimentale, Sezione di Scienze Antropologiche, Cittadella Universitaria, Monserrato, Italy.

    This study is a comparison of several anthropometric variables in school children of the same age (7-10 years) and sex measured in two primary schools in Cagliari (Sardinia, Italy) at an interval of 20 years (1996 vs. 1975-1976). For both males and females of each age-class, there are significant differences in the following dimensions: weight, stature, estimated lower limb length, biacromial breadth, xiphoid chest circumference, xiphoid chest depth, and bicristal breadth, and also in relative sitting height, cephalic index, and facial index. The means of the relative sitting height, cephalic, and facial indexes are higher in the children measured in 1975-1976 than in those measured in 1996. There are no significant differences in sitting height and arm length. In addition, the estimated BMIs of the 1975-1976 sample are, on average, lower than those of the 1996 sample. The results suggest that urban Sardinian children sampled in 1996 are generally taller, heavier, and larger and have a longer head and wider face than their peers of 20 years earlier. The increase in stature is due more to an increase in lower limb length than in sitting height. Am J. Hum. Biol. 12:782-791, 2000. Copyright 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc."


    Studies like these have been done all over Europe. Probably in your country too. I suggest you look into it, instead of reading books from the 1920s.


    Here is another article about the relationship between Slavs and Indians.

    History of Ancient Indian Conquest Told in Modern Genes, Experts Say
    Robert Cooke, Newsday

    Like an indelible signature enduring through a hundred generations, genes that entered India when conquering hordes swooped down from the north thousands of years ago are still there, and remain entrenched at the top of the caste system, scientists report. Analyses of the male Y chromosome, plus genes hidden in small cellular bodies called mitochondria, show that today's genetic patterns agree with accounts of ancient Indo-European warriors' conquering the Indian subcontinent.

    The invaders apparently shoved the local men aside, took their women and set up the rigid caste system that exists today. Their descendants are still the elite within Hindu society.


    INVADING CAUCASOIDS
    Thus today's genetic patterns, the researchers explained, vividly reflect a historic event, or events, that occurred 3,000 or 4,000 years ago. The gene patterns ``are consistent with a historical scenario in which invading Caucasoids -- primarily males -- established the caste system and occupied the highest positions, placing the indigenous population, who were more similar to Asians, in lower caste positions.''

    The researchers, from the University of Utah and Andhra Pradesh University in India, used two sets of genes in their analyses.

    One set, from the mitochondria, are only passed maternally and can be used to track female inheritance. The other, on the male-determining Y chromosome, can only be passed along paternally and thus track male inheritance.

    The data imply, then, ``that there was a group of males with European affinities who were largely responsible for this invasion 3,000 or 4,000 years ago,'' said geneticist Lynn Jorde of the University of Utah.

    If women had accompanied the invaders, he said, the evidence should be seen in the mitochondrial genes, but it is not evident.

    According to geneticist Douglas Wallace of Emory University in Atlanta, the work reported by Jorde and his colleagues ``is very interesting, and is certainly worth further study.''

    Along with Jorde, the research team included Michael Bamshad, W.S. Watkins and M.E. Dixon from Utah and B.B. Rao, B.V.R. Prasad and J.M. Naidu, from Andhra Pradesh University.


    UPWARDLY MOBILE WOMEN
    By studying both sets of genetic markers, the research team found clear evidence echoing what is still seen socially, that women can be upwardly mobile, in terms of caste, if they marry higher-caste men. In contrast, men generally do not move higher, because women rarely marry men from lower castes, the researchers said.

    ``Our expectations in this natural experiment are borne out when we look at the genes,'' said Jorde. ``It's one of the few cases where we know the mating situation in a population for 150 generations. So it's kind of a test for how well the genes reflect a population's history.''

    The ancient story holds that invaders known as Indo-Europeans, or true Aryans, came from Eastern Europe or western Asia and conquered the Indian subcontinent. The people they subdued descended from the original inhabitants who had arrived far earlier from Africa and from other parts of Asia.

    During the genetic studies, in 1996 and 1997, researchers took blood samples from hundreds of people in southern India. The analyses compared the genes from 316 caste members and 330 members of tribal populations, looking for signs of Asian, European and African ancestry.

    In the mitochondrial genes passed along by females, Jorde said, they could see the clear background of Asian genes. ``All of the caste groups were similar to Asians, the underlying population'' that had originally been subdued.

    But, he added, ``when we look at the Y chromosome DNA, we see a very different pattern. The lower castes are most similar to Asians, and the upper castes are more European than Asian.''

    Further, ``when we look at the different components within the upper caste, the group with the greatest European similarity of all is the warrior class, the Kshatriya, who are still at the top of the Hindu castes, with the Brahmins,'' Jorde said.

    ``But the Brahmins, in terms of their Y chromosomes, are a little bit more Asian.''

    So the genetic results are ``consistent with historical accounts that women sometimes marry into higher caste, resulting in female gene flow between adjacent castes. In contrast, males seldom change castes, so Y chromosome'' variation occurs only as a result of natural mutations, Jorde said.


    CASTE SYSTEM STILL ALIVE
    He added that even though India's ancient caste system was abolished legally in the 1960s, it is still entrenched socially.

    ``People are very well aware of their caste membership,'' he said, noting that in some cities the housing is still arranged along caste lines. So ``one might argue, unfortunately so, that it (the caste system) does exist in people's minds.''

    In terms of who marries whom, the researchers described the Hindu caste system as ``governing the mating practices of nearly one-sixth of the world's population.''

    The blood samples taken from tribal people in southern India are still being analyzed, Jorde added.

    But so far, ``the tribal populations are more similar to the lower castes than to anyone else, similar to the original residents of India,'' he said.

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    Hello Polak,

    I have been pondering over your posts and my response(s) to them... and I think that my response(s) to you may have been too harsh.

    Everyone is entitled to his opinions, and that includes you. Here at Skadi.net Forums we endeavour to facilitate the opinions of many, and to stimulate thought and healthy debate in this manner. Therefore I want to tell you that you are welcome to tell us about your views, opinions, and things you have learnt. And I want to offer an apology to you that I may not have received your opinions in a worthy manner.

    Nevertheless, it would be helpful if we could clearly discriminate between facts and opinions. Some of the links and quotations you have provided, have contained useful factual information, or the results of genetic research. Your comments on those, however, are partly logical and partly hypothesizing.

    I would like to continue this genetic discussion, for I find it fascinating. Nowadays, I also attempt to gather information about this wherever I can. Many other posters here share my enthusiasm. Therefore, I am grateful for your contribution. Where I do not agree with your opinions, I will attempt to debate you. Hopefully, we can all enrich one another's knowledge and understanding on the various issues.

    I am too tired now to reply to some of your statements - your posts are long and require detailed examination

    I'll be back....

    Regards,

    Loki

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    Witac Polak! Ziveli Sloveni!


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