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Thread: Racial Aspects in Germanic Myths: Who are the German Dwarfs?

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    Post Racial Aspects in Germanic Myths: Who are the German Dwarfs?

    There are several Theories about the German Dwarfs, I think they were simply the Ghosts of the Earth worshipped by our German ancestors. As you see in the Sagas they often are guarding Treasuries , like Gold, Silver or smitten Weapons. Their Treasures are often often cursed . Modern Examples are Oil or Uran who are both dangerous and Important .

    The Racial Theories i know are either saying that the Dwarfes are Memorys of small buildt Southern workers who earned Ore in Alpine Mines and possesed a great Skill in Metall-Works (see Tyrfing Saga ) or like Paul Herrmann tries to prove in his "German Mythology" that real Dwarfpeople lived in ancient German Woods, he is proving his Theorie with Antropology, but in the new Press of his Book the Article is excluded, does anyone have it ?


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    hi Utgard-loki,
    that is really interesting. perhaps that is what magnificent Tolkien is inspired from. really interesting. i had read something about dwarfs and megaliths in britain and a disappearing explorer. i will forward your post to a friend and ask his opinion about the case. by the way there are some remnants of a remote uralic language in belgium (i may forward the post later) and breiz type (france) is either alpin or lapponoid. so perhaps it has some anthropologic basis but how do we associate metal works with a perhaps native forest dwelling people? can you expand the issue with that saga abit more please. maybe we can get some hints.
    best regards

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    Lightbulb Dwarfes & Pictures

    1. how do we associate metal works with a perhaps native forest dwelling people?

    I dont know if the Theorie of Herrmann mentions that Skill, As i said i own just the new copy of the Bock , On the Beginning it´s said: i translated it from German Language so there might be mistakes)

    "We´ve kept the right, to erase Passages who are not important, don´t show a great amount of Wisdom , who are going of Topic, who not fit the modern Viewpoint ( political correctness ) or who are not usefull without significant Knowledge of the Subject. Passages who were only understandable by the old View of the Genders were ereased , too . Also deleted was a " scientific " Try to prove the Existence of Dwarfes in acient Germanic Woods using Racial-Theories and Antropolgy.

    The editor of this text goes by the name Thomas Jung. Antropology is the " EVIL " NO 1 in Germany nowadays. When i were in College my former Biology Teacher told us that the Races are not existant !!! Each Human Being has can build a Negro, Norse, Arab or Asian Paenotypus because we all have the Same Genes ... It´s just a mather of Clima not of Evolution. There is no Need to comment this Nonsense. But Antropology is " Nazi " at least for the public. In Universitys the " P. correct " Scientists are of course serious about the Topic, but their Reseach is not meant for the Public .

    Ok, i don´t think that forest dwelling people, mustn´t have Metall working Skills. At least even Nomads are able to extract Ore from Plaingrounds in the German or Alpine regions Small Hills countain Ore and of course Bronze , too .
    The Celts were able to make beutiefull Jewelery with there bare hands, if you know how soft some Metalls that´s not suprising .


    2. The Tyrfing Saga .

    It`s a Epos about the Sword Tyrfing and his Masters . It starts in the Land Gardariki located near the " Ostsea " . Once King Svarlami, a Grandson of Odin , was hunting, while following his Prey he get´s into a Part of the Forest where he has never been bevore. He saw a rocky Mountain and infront of a Opening in the Rocks there were two Dwarfes standing . As they saw him they tried to get back into the Mountain, but he banned them they were offering him Money if he would let them go . The King asked for their names, one was Dvalin and the other was Dulin. Then the King spoke : " Because you are the most skillfull amoung the Dwarfes, you should make me a Sword ; with all your Art and the Grip ( Griff ) and the Finger-Defence (Parierstange ) should be from pure Gold . It should cut Steel like ordinary clothes and it shall not rost. Everybody wo wields it should be victorious . The Dwarfes agreed and the King went Home .

    At the choosen Day the King came back and the Dwarfes were waiting for him , they gave him the Sword and he saw that it was very fine . But Dvalin spoke : " This sword will become the Murder of a Man every Time it is drawn , and Three Times it will be used for Quests lead by Bad-Desire, it shall become your Murder ,too ! " The King stroke after the Dwarf but he escaped an the Sword cut into the rock till the grip. He called his Sword Tyrfing ( Claw of Tyr [ God of War ] , as i would translate it).

    King Agantyr of Hreidgotenland ( he defeated the Huns ) was the last known wealder of Tyrfing . It has never been seen again since the Battle against Humli . Maybe the King did encounter the " Dwarfes " and for letting them alive. He demanded a Sword because they were Famous for they´re Metallworks. Otherwise he would have killed them . Sounds like nothing very unusual . Perhaps the Saga is partly true .


    3 . The people of the Bretange( Breiz ) have Tales about the Korrigans. A little Race of Dwarfes . They sell also beautyfull drawn Comicbooks about them .

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    Ok, i don´t think that forest dwelling people, mustn´t have Metall working Skills. At least even Nomads are able to extract Ore from Plaingrounds in the German or Alpine regions Small Hills countain Ore and of course Bronze, too. The Celts were able to make beutiefull Jewelery with there bare hands, if you know how soft some Metalls that´s not suprising.

    I agree with you here, for according to some sagas the first turks were working as slaves doing the iron woks for juan juan(avars) untill they rioted and got free. the some part of the altai mountains are said to look like a helmet and the name turk(helmet) is given to turks. in fact avars are turks too perhaps initially turk was the name given to only one tribe among many tribes and somehow the turkish named tribe took over and we are named after them. according to coon iron works are carried by dinaricized mediterraneans so perhaps the ores we look are cupper or bronze, we can check historical ores but it may be iron too for interactions always occur.

    But Antropology is " Nazi " at least for the public. In Universitys the " P. correct " Scientists are of course serious about the Topic, but their Reseach is not meant for the Public . the same here. They would call you a skullist which would mean skull fetishist. most books are not even translated or cannot be found anywhere. i believe that at least if we can identify some types unique or say some types statistically significanty among some certain populations we can more accurately identify migration routes.

    The people of the Bretagne (Breiz) have Tales about the Korrigans. A little Race of Dwarfes . They sell also beautifully drawn comic books about them . again thank you for the info. it is really interesting. sagas are a part of the cultural anthropology and i think there are always important truths hidden in them. for example leyla and mecnun is a story of a love affair between the daughter of a christian aristocrat of iran and an muslim ordinary man(perhaps both were persians). one can find the hints of the first secular movements in the region that is why we were able to build a secular state here.

    Ok, let us stick to Norse mythology. (please not the saga about the virgins and Attilla). may be we can expand it a bit, is the conflict between aesir and venir pointing to a conflict between a warrior migrator and sedentary farmers or is it the introduction of a new technology? how far past we can date the earlier sagas. i do not want to asking too much but you know alot about the subject and it would be unfair if i did not ask too much. if it is Huns it is early in the first millenium. and as always please take your time, we dont need to hurry.

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    btw, i met them while browsing they may interest you .http://www.hammerfall.net/download/audio/
    best regards

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    Post Hammerfall & Norse Myths

    Thank´s for the Tip. I know them already, some of my Friends were hearing them, when i was younger i did some Roleplaying and Fantastic Metall was the perfect Background Music .

    Nowadays i like the Celtic Folkmusic, also Classic and Electronic Meditativ Stuff like Burzums Filosofem CD and of course German - Rockmusic .

    The same here. They would call you a skullist which would mean skull fetishist. most books are not even translated or cannot be found anywhere. i believe that at least if we can identify some types unique or say some types statistically significanty among some certain populations we can more accurately identify migration routes.

    You outnumber my Knowledge of the Subject Antropology by far, in Germany Books about it are either only for University Students or you have to get them from the States - bookarchieves. There´s usualy one in each great Town ( you can of course order them from another Country ) . Do you know Dr. Hans F - K Günther ? Thorburnulf has just told me about him , i got a Book from the States-Book-archieve and i must say he is the best Author iv´e ever read about the Subject.

    Skullie , lol. Most Humans don´t like it to be remided that they are part of the Evolution.

    How far past we can date the earlier sagas ?


    "Bók þessi heitir Edda, hana hefir saman setta Snorri Sturluson."

    This is the first sentence of the Edda by Snorri written in 1222 the so called earlier Sagas ( not really ) in the Edda are written around 1260 . There is Evidence that Havamal and the Tale of the Volüpsa are told already in the 9th century by Bards. The Gods and the Tales about them are much earlier known. My Homeland was Christianinisized around 400 - 500 the North of Germany later . So the southern Tales (there are not many) of Wotan = Odin or Donar = Thorburn prove that the Cult of the Norse Gods and also their Tales are much older. www.asatru-online.de is the ultimate site about German Mythology and Cultgrounds ( and also informative about Norse Myths ) but unfortunatly it´s only in German Language.


    If it is huns it is early in the first millenium.
    The German Myths that were later mixed into the Nibelungensong Are often refering to the Huns . The Nibelungen are ending with the slaughter betwen the Huns and the Burgunder at the Hall of the Huns king Etzel . The Tyrfing Saga is as you said taking Place around the early first millenium.

    Aesir vs. Vanier Conflict :

    Odin throwed the Ger into the Enemys:
    The first War came in the World;
    The Bordwall of the Asencastle broke .
    Vanen walked the Grounds hungry for Battle.

    I think the War betwen the Vanier and Asier is on one Hand a Change , the old Gods of Fruit, Growing and of course of the Farmers were getting less - and the more martial acting Asier were getting more important . With the Times the Gods have also changed, Thorburn is a very old God probably early Stoneage i would guess , Odin is a more complex Character. The Cult of a Mother Godess is probably the oldest , and was later adapted by the Christians as a Cult for the Mother Christi Maria, for the Farmers she remained the same . The Asier were alltough not been able to defeat the Vanier .

    About the Dwarfes, i remember that iv´e been talking with a turkish Friend of mine about the Djin ? What do you know about them?

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    Do you know the rhyme poem of Rig from the Edda about the origin of the three social standings: noble man, free peasant and slave? In Günther's book Adel und Rasse it's analysed from racial aspects.

    You know asatru.de? You must know the racial interpretation of the war between Asier and Vanier as the clash between Nordic and Falish race, do you? http://www.asatru.de/awk.htm

    Günther writes in Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes also that perhaps the Germanic myths of Giant wars are a reminiscense of the clash between Nordic and Falish race. But he only gives this possibility as one sentence, as an annotation, where he writes about the Nordic race in European pre-history and doesn't go into all that deeper.

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    Post is Thor originally low vault?

    A clash between nordic and phalish race? this subject is very interesting. i have several points i wan to discuss and get more knowledge from you. I thought nordic was a reduced phalish, is it the son against the father?
    what is that nordic by definition? Is it the typical halstat, troender, aistin?

    What i understand from Phalian is the non-reduced UP survivor, i would appreciate a proper definition of phalian. Now who is associated with farming in that conflict? Are upper paleolitihcs associated with farming or nordics?
    In that sense Thorburn is not a low vault god. The farming society in the nordic land is the LBK which later settler as TRB (we can expand it if someone who knows more about the subject does not write an article).

    As i can understand from Coon, the Nordics are originally associated with farming who were initially Danubians and mostly high vault which was reduced by UP mixture. Putting halstat in the center is a convention, for it is thought to be a lower vault a continentan european cline who look like or resemble the original danubeans (who are in the same racial group, brunnids, with the corded ware people). It is a matter of stabilization some types were stabilized as more UP looking some were stabilized, more Mediterranean-looking (Halstatts).
    Last edited by torrent; Tuesday, July 8th, 2003 at 11:11 PM.

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    In its purest form, and as marked on a map on the racial distribution in Europe, the French anthropologist Georges Poisson seem to state that the Faelid or Phaelian race occupies North France, the Benelux countries and West Germany, a belt of areas renowned for its large-headedness, either in its dolicho as brachymorphic predisposition.

    Montandon as one of the few gives up an average lenght-breadth index of 78, mesocephalic.

    The contour of the head is pentagonoid, thus with pronounced pariantal bosses, which is a reminder of the condition seen in Cro Magnon. It suggest too that in contrast to Capellids and Chandelade-derivative races, like the Mediterreneans, the head is fairly broad and further a good marker for general robusticity.

    It's a tall race, but build in a lateral direction, massive and plump; unfortunely, I don't know how the limb proportions are nor whether his trunk is short or long. Nordids have as a rule long legs and short arms, however Paleo-Atlantids, East Baltids and Lapps have long arms and short legs, while Alpines are both short armed and short legged; so I can't rely on general constitutional somatics to decide whether a Faelids is rather Nordic or a Mesolithic derivative, or a mix of both.

    The face is low and broad, the forehead doesn't recede much and cclimbs up steeply and not too high, while the chin, unlike Cro Magnon, is rather blunted, like its shortish but strong nose; a supraciliary torus runs over its eyes in stead of slightly eminent arches like in Nordids and Mediterranids, another departure of Cro Magnon, but rather in the realm of equally low-vaulted Predmost types, which are classed as cromagnids as well.

    The Faelid approaches distinctively the Obercassel man from the Magdalénian period of the UP, in general lateral built, inclusively the combination of large and low dimensions of the facial structure and the eminent browridges; a departure of this possible predecessor is the mesorhinity of the Faelid, while Obercassel had a typical UP beakyness and the Faelid is assumed to be low-vaulted, while Obercassel tends to orthocephaly.

    On the Obercassel and other Magdalénian races: http://www.geocities.com/fra31gos/My_page.html

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    Just as many other anthropologists, Günther only makes a main difference between the broad-tall, medium broad faced Dalids, Dalofalids or Dalonordids, who he, Günther, calls fälische Rasse, as the "heavy" Schlag of the Nordids on the one hand - and on the other hand the slim-tall, narrow faced Teutonordids or Nordics, the Nordids in a narrower sense of the word: Günther's nordische Rasse.
    A deeper difference between other local or regional Schläge of the Nordids or Schläge as a result of mixture in certain areas isn't made here first.

    I found more about the racial interpretation of certain elements of Germanic myths in Günther's book Herkunft und Rassengeschichte der Germanen [Origin and racial history of the Germanics]. I forgot to take a dictionary with me now, so I'll just post the German text today:

    Die beiden Grundrassen des Germanentums werden vielleicht auch von der germanischen Göttersage geschildert, und zwar als die schlank-hohen Asen gegenüber den ihnen an Körperhöhe noch überlegenen breit-hohen Riesen. Die Riesen werden von den Asen überwunden, wie wahrscheinlich manche megalithkeramische Gruppe fälischer Rasse durch nordrassische Schnurkeramiker. Auf wiederholte Zusammenstöße zweier solcher Gruppen während der Jungsteinzeit könnte also dieser Zug der Sage zurückgehen.
    Die Zwerge der germanischen Märchen, die Heinzelmännchen, Erdmännchen, Wichtelmännchen, immer als kleine, untersetzte Gestalten mit runderen, breiteren Gesichtern und stumpfer, dicklicher Nase gedacht, dabei immer dunkelhaarig: ihr Bild ist vielleicht dem Merkmalbilde der ostischen (alpinen) Rasse durch nordische und nordisch-fälische Stämme der Jungsteinzeit und Bronzezeit entnommen worden.


    (Source: Günther, Hans F. K.: Herkunft und Rassengeschichte der Germanen, Munich 1935, p. 135)

    I also would agree that, when thinking of a racial interpretation of the dwarf component of the Germanic sagas, in the area where Nordic Germanics and pre-Germanics have been the Alpines are the nearest one should think of - of course one has to think of a contact between quite pure Nordics and quite pure Alpines. The look of the dwarfs then would of course show a caricature of Alpine racial features.

    I also only have got the new, shortened (Censored would be perhaps better. And the Aufbau-Verlag, an ex-GDR book house, isn't even "coservative") edition of Herrmann's Deutsche Mythologie.
    But of that what is left I see that Herrmann goes in the same direction, even if Herrmann in 1898 of course couldn't have a all to clear, really scientific anthropological knowledge about Alpines and Nordics.
    Herrmann writes (p. 133): In den Zwergsagen der Germanen lebt die Erinnerung fort an ein kleines Geschlecht, die sogenannten Pfahlbauern, das ältere Rechte hatte als die Eindringenden, aber arm, dürftig, des Brotbackens unkundig, in Sümpfe und Höhlen scheu zurückwich [...]. [...] enthält verblaßte Erinnerungen an Kämpfe, die von Stämmen kleineren Körperschlags gegen solche von größerem dereinst zur Urzeit in Erinnerung geführt wurden.

    The Pfahlbauleute in prehistorical southern Germany and Switzerland, in the region around the Alpes, were mainly of Alpine racial type.

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