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Thread: The Battle of Teutoburg Forest / Who Was Arminius and What Did He Do?

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    Post Re: AW: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    Quote Originally Posted by weissesMädel
    New studies are linking Hermann the Cherdusker with Siegfried (Sigurd). No one knows Hermann's correct name, but almost all men in his family had names beginning with "Sieg-".


    And there are several more hints that this theory might be true:
    In the Edda, there's a special symbolism with Sigurd: He appears a a golden deer and nursed by a hind. And the deer was totem of the Cherusker. The tribes name comes from the germanic word "herut" - deer.


    Furthermore, the Edda names the place, where Sigurd killed the wyvern: at the "Gnitaheide", Gnita-heath. There's a "Knitterheide" about 70 km away from the place where the Teutoburg battle had taken place.

    The wyvern could symbolize the Roman legions - the thousands and thousand of soldiers formed a platoon which was long about 6 km.

    Völsunga saga tells about Sigurd, who breaks in into the home of Fafnir and finds - next to a huge amount of gold - also a sword, a armour and a helmet -
    such weapons captured the Germanic at the Teutoburg battle.

    The huge amount of gold could symbolize the very precious dishes, the Romans brought with them. Pompeius Paulinus, who was governor in Lower Germania, travelled with about 4.000 kg of silver dishes. Probably Varo carried at least the same amount of dishes with him.

    Finally, Hermann and Siegfried/Sigurd both died in outrageous ways, killed by their own relatives.
    The Sigurd saga was earlier than Siegfried which some say was 13th century or so. It is certainly possible that elements of Hermann's times, situation, deeds and culture came into the Siegfried story as this sort of thing happens. It may be true that Romance Language would have only been adopted by the upper class but look what it did to English in Norman times under exactly those conditions. No telling what would have happened if Hermann had never lived or lost at Teutoburgerwald. We might be posting in Latin now.

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    Post AW: Re: AW: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    The Sigurd saga was earlier than Siegfried which some say was 13th century or so. It is certainly possible that elements of Hermann's times, situation, deeds and culture came into the Siegfried story as this sort of thing happens. It may be true that Romance Language would have only been adopted by the upper class but look what it did to English in Norman times under exactly those conditions. No telling what would have happened if Hermann had never lived or lost at Teutoburgerwald. We might be posting in Latin now.
    The first time the Edda was written down was in 1271 ("Codex regius"). The oldest songs in the Edda were probably made 300 to 400 years before.

    The first time the Nibelung saga was written down was between 1180 and 1210.

    Sigurd and Siegfried are the same person, Siegfried is the German version of the Edda-Sigurd.

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    Post AW: Re: AW: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    Quote Originally Posted by weissesMädel
    Sigurd and Siegfried are the same person, Siegfried is the German version of the Edda-Sigurd.
    Something interesting about this:

    http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/dahn/walhall/walh041.htm

    (German link)
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Quote Originally Posted by weissesMädel
    The first time the Edda was written down was in 1271 ("Codex regius"). The oldest songs in the Edda were probably made 300 to 400 years before.

    The first time the Nibelung saga was written down was between 1180 and 1210.

    Sigurd and Siegfried are the same person, Siegfried is the German version of the Edda-Sigurd.

    Siegfried was to some extent based on Sigurd but Sigurd is a much earlier story. Sigurd's story is primarily killing a dragon. Siegfried's story is his travels to Worms, adventures with women, and betrayal. Siegfried is a classic tale of the middle ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop
    Something interesting about this:

    http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/dahn/walhall/walh041.htm

    (German link)
    I read the first paragraph. There is nothing in Sigurd like the characters Atilla and I believe Hagen. Sigurd's other main character is his father Siegmund. Where is the Brunhilde-like character in Sigurd?

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    Post AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    I read the first paragraph. There is nothing in Sigurd like the characters Atilla and I believe Hagen. Sigurd's other main character is his father Siegmund. Where is the Brunhilde-like character in Sigurd?
    There is Atli (Etzel/Attila) who marries Sigurd´s widow Gudrun (Krimhild), Gutthorm (Hagen) and Brynhild. The Sigurd saga obviously was influenced by historical events in Germany.
    Last edited by Zyklop; Saturday, June 4th, 2005 at 06:27 AM.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    Quote Originally Posted by weissesMädel
    The first time the Edda was written down was in 1271 ("Codex regius"). The oldest songs in the Edda were probably made 300 to 400 years before.

    The first time the Nibelung saga was written down was between 1180 and 1210.

    Sigurd and Siegfried are the same person, Siegfried is the German version of the Edda-Sigurd.
    The Nibelung Saga has even things in common with the Iliad of Homer. Think of Achilles Heel and Siegfrieds vulnerable spot . Ancient Aryan mythology is interesting in many ways. The Rigsthula of the Edda explains the genealogy of the social order. Interesting also the link to racial features that is made... Back to "Arminius" - how is this linked to the irminsul? I must dig out what I have from Tacitus....

    ...lucky me:
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/Tac...067-01_Bk.html
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/Tac...067-02_Bk.html
    http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/Tac...067-04_Bk.html

    These seem to be most of the works. Check it out it's a hole library of thinkers you can have a look at. In some cases on can even find what they said on racial issues
    Last edited by Horagalles; Saturday, June 4th, 2005 at 05:48 PM.

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    Most legendary figures are based at least in part on real historical personalities...

    This sounds very likely, at least in later tellings of the Sigurð tale folks may have drawn comparisons to Arminus.

    Has anyone been to the memorial site in Teutoborgswald? I found a book online a couple of years ago dealing with ongoing archaeological discoveries in the area. I should have bought it at the time, but it should be easy enough to track down again.

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    Maybe you're talking about this or this?

    This webpage - unfortunately only availabe in German - shows some pictures from the battle field, the silver precious and some other thinks.

    Die Varusschlacht
    If you need some translation, let me know.
    Lík börn leika best.

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    Re: Who was Arminius and what did he do

    their is a 100ft statue of Hermman in a small town in minnesota called new ulm. a very beautiful German American community. Hermman or Arminus was a great and true patriot. Alaric is another Great German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boche View Post
    Arminius and the Cherusci also joined up with the Chatti Tribe before the Teuteburger Forest war:

    The Chatti (also Catti) were an ancient Germanic tribe settled in central and northern Hesse and southern Lower Saxony, along the upper reaches of the Weser river and in the valleys and mountains of the Eder, Fulda and Werra river regions, a district approximately corresponding to Hesse-Cassel, though probably somewhat more extensive. According to Tacitus (Histories iv. under 70 [1]), among them were the Batavians, until an internal quarrel drove them out, to take up new lands at the mouth of the Rhine.

    The Chatti successfully resisted incorporation into the Roman Empire, joining the Cheruscan war leader Arminius' coalition of tribes that annihilated Varus' legions in 9 in the Battle of Teutoburg Forest. Germanicus later, in 15, raided their lands in revenge, but Rome eventually responded to the Chatti's belligerent defense of their independence by building the limes border fortifications along the southern boundary of their lands in central Hesse during the early years of the 1st century. The remnants of a very large fortified retreat (Altenburg) have been found on a hill near the village of Metze Niedenstein (Latin: Mattium) in the core lands of the Chatti near Fritzlar, south of Kassel. On the other hand, it has been said that the identified retreat was abandoned prior to the Christian Era, making its earlier identification with the Chatti's capital Mattium unfounded.

    According to Tacitus in his book Germania (chapter 30), they were disciplined warriors famed for their infantry, who (unusually for Germanic tribes) used trenching tools and carried provisions when at war. Their neighbours to the north were the Usipi and Tencteri.

    The Chatti eventually became a branch of the much larger neighboring Franks and were incorporated in the kingdom of Clovis I, probably with the Ripuarians, at the beginning of the 6th century. They are mentioned in the Old English epic Beowulf as Hetwaras.

    In 723, the Anglo-Saxon missionary Winfrid -- subsequently called St. Boniface, Apostle of the Germans -- proselytizing among the Chatti, felled their sacred tree, Thor's Oak, near Fritzlar, as part of his efforts to compel the conversion of the Chatti and the other northern Germanic tribes to Christianity.

    "Chatti" eventually became "Hesse" through a series of sound shifts.





    Gruß,
    Boche
    Did the Chatti have any relation to the Marcomanni at all? I know that under King Marbod the Marcomanni formed a confederation of tribes with other Germanic tribes. The reason I ask this is that by family tradition my mothers family is said to be descended from the Marcomanni…however the family is from Hochstadt, Hessen-Hanau, so I don’t know if the Marcomanni tradition is really possible…then again a lot of movement can happen in a few hundred years!
    For the Ancestors who came before us, the Generations that flow form us, for the Blood that is in our veins.

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