Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Y chromosomes rewrite British history Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker...

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Last Online
    Friday, December 8th, 2006 @ 02:25 AM
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Posts
    4,101
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Post Y chromosomes rewrite British history Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker...

    Y chromosomes rewrite British history
    Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker than historians suspected
    19 June 2003
    HANNAH HOAG

    Some Scottish men's Y's are remarkably similar to those of southern England. [Image]

    A new survey of Y chromosomes in the British Isles suggests that the Anglo-Saxons failed to leave as much of a genetic stamp on the UK as history books imply1.

    Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.

    But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily.

    The Anglo-Saxons and Danes left their mark in central and eastern England, and mainland Scotland, the survey says, and the biological traces of Norwegian invaders show up in the northern British Isles, including Orkney.

    Similar studies, including one by the same team, have looked at differences in mitochondrial DNA, which we inherit from our mothers. They found little regional variation because females tended to move to their husbands.

    But the Y chromosome shows sharper differences from one geographic region to the next, says geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza, of Stanford University, California. "The Y chromosome has a lower mutation rate than mitrochondrial DNA."

    Goldstein's team collected DNA samples from more than 1,700 men living in towns across England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. They took a further 400 DNA samples from continental Europeans, including Germans and Basques. Only men whose paternal grandfathers had dwelt within 20 miles of their current home were eligible.

    The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

    The new survey is an example of how archaeologists, prehistorians and geneticists are beginning to collaborate, comments Chris Tyler-Smith of the University of Oxford, UK, who tracks human evolution using the Y chromosome. "It would be nice to see the whole world surveyed in this kind of detail, but it's expensive and there are other priorities."


    References
    Capelli, C. et al. A Y chromosome census of the British Isles. Current Biology, 13, 979 - 984, (2003).

    Source:

    http://www.nature.com/nsu/030616/030616-15.html

    You should also read:

    http://www.current-biology.com/conte...60982203003737

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Last Online
    Friday, December 8th, 2006 @ 02:25 AM
    Country
    European Union European Union
    Gender
    Posts
    4,101
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Post

    Science Desk | May 27, 2003, Tuesday
    Y Chromosomes Sketch New Outline of British History

    By NICHOLAS WADE (NYT)

    History books favor stories of conquest, not of continuity, so it is perhaps not surprising that many Englishmen grow up believing they are a fighting mixture of the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans who invaded Britain. The defeated Celts, by this reckoning, left their legacy only in the hinterlands of Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

    A new genetic survey of Y chromosomes throughout the British Isles has revealed a very different story. The Celtic inhabitants of Britain were real survivors. Nowhere were they entirely replaced by the invaders
    and they survive in high proportions, often 50 percent or more, throughout the British Isles, according to a study by Dr. Cristian Capelli, Dr. David B. Goldstein and others at University College London.

    The study, being reported today in Current Biology, was based on comparing Y chromosomes sampled throughout the British Isles with the invaders' Y chromosomes, as represented by the present-day descendants of the Danes, Vikings (in Norway) and Anglo-Saxons (in Schleswig-Holstein in northern Germany).

    The survey began as a request from the British Broadcasting Corporation to look for genetic signatures of the Vikings in England, later broadened to include the Danes and Anglo-Saxons. Dr. Goldstein said that not enough money was available to study two other invaders, the Romans and the Normans, but that he felt that their demographic contribution had probably been small.

    He assumed the original inhabitants of Britain could be represented by men living in Castlerea, in central Ireland, a region not reached by any foreign invader. In a study two years ago Dr. Goldstein and colleagues established that Y chromosomes of Celtic populations were almost identical with those of the Basques.

    The Basques live in a mountainous refuge on the French-Spanish border and speak a language wholly unrelated to the Indo-European tongues that swept into Europe some 8,000 years ago, bringing the agricultural revolution of the Neolithic period. Hence they have long been regarded as likely remnants of the first modern humans to reach Europe some 30,000 years ago, during the Paleolithic.

    By this chain of reasoning, the Celtic-speaking men, since genetically very close to the Basques, must
    also be drawn from the original Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe, and probably represent the first modern human inhabitants of Britain who settled the islands some 10,000 years ago, Dr. Goldstein said. These original Britons must later have adopted from Europe both the Celtic culture, evidence of which appears from some 3,000 years ago, and the Celtic language, which is a branch of the Indo-European language family.

    Having identified Y chromosomes assumed typical of the original Britons, Dr. Goldstein and his team could assess the demographic impact of the invaders. They found that the Vikings left a heavy genetic imprint in the Orkneys, the islands off the northeast coast of Scotland, which were a center of Viking operations between A.D. 800 and 1200. Many men in York and east England carry Danish Y chromosomes. But surprisingly, there is little sign of Anglo-Saxon heritage in southern England.

    "One tends to think of England as Anglo-Saxon," Dr. Goldstein said. "But we show quite clearly there was not complete replacement of existing populations by either Anglo-Saxons or Danes. It looks like the Celts did hold out."

    The Y chromosome measures only the activities of men. In a survey reported two years ago, Dr. Goldstein and colleagues examined British mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element inherited through the mother. Surprisingly, the British maternal heritage turned out to be more like that of northern Europeans than British Y chromosomes are.

    To explain that finding, it is not necessary to assume Britain was invaded by an army of Amazons, Dr. Goldstein said, or that the Celts had suddenly decided to replace their Celtic wives with women from the Middle East. More probably, since Celts in Britain remained in contact with those in Europe, there were continual exchanges that included women. As in many cultures, the Celtic men stayed put while women moved to their husbands' villages.

    So over time, Britain's female population would gradually have become more like that of Northern Europe, Dr. Goldstein suggested.

    British historians have generally emphasized the Roman and Anglo-Saxon contributions to English culture at the expense of the Celtic. A recent history of Britain, "The Isles" by Norman Davies, tried to redress the balance. The Celts were ignored, he noted, in part because no documentary histories remain, the Celts having regarded writing as a threat to their oral traditions. Generations of historians saw British history as beginning with Roman invasions of the first century A.D. and indeed identified with the Romans rather than the defeated Celts.

    "So long as classical education and classical prejudices prevailed, educated Englishmen inevitably saw ancient Britain as an alien land," Dr. Davies writes. The new survey indicates that the genetic contribution of the Celts has been as much underestimated as their historical legacy.

    Dr. Davies said in an interview that "traditionally, historians thought in terms of invasions: the Celts took over the islands, then the Romans, then the Anglo-Saxons."

    "It now seems much more likely that the resident population doesn't change as much as thought," he continued. "The people stay put but are reculturalized by some new dominant culture."

    The Y chromosome is a useful way of tracking men because it is passed unchanged from father to son, escaping the genetic shuffle between generations that affects the rest of the genome. Also, all men carry the same Y chromosome, a surprising situation derived from the fact that in the ancestral human population some men had no children or only daughters, so that in each generation some Y chromosomes disappeared until only one was left.

    This one and only Y has the same sequence of DNA units in every man alive except for the occasional mutation that has cropped up every thousand years or so and is then inherited by all that individuals' descendants. Geneticists can draw up family trees based on these mutations as branching points and then assign specific lineages to historic events or locations, like the entry of Neolithic farmers into Europe.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?UR...ce/27BRIT.html

  3. #3
    ...................
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Allenson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, October 19th, 2017 @ 10:51 AM
    Ethnicity
    New English
    State
    Vermont Vermont
    Location
    Bliss Farm
    Gender
    Occupation
    Smuggler
    Politics
    Ruralist
    Religion
    Old Mother West Wind
    Posts
    3,908
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    18
    Thanked in
    18 Posts

    Post

    Hi Volks, glad to see you back around. Anyway, I've read this study as well as the one by Weale et al. that basically concludes that there indeed was a reasonably significant male replacement at the time of Anglo-Saxon settlement in England.

    Here's my take:

    The study by Goldstein is interesting but in a way doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know......that being that the Saxons did not settle with any density in Wales, Ireland or the Highlands of Scotland. The highest incidences of Saxon type genetic markers are found indeed where history tells they settled the heaviest; that being in eastern and central England, some in the south and some also in the Lowlands of Scotland.

    Another thing to consider, is the mass migration of people out of England to the colonies during the past 400 or so years. The genetic material that was carried out of England (and of course other places in the Isles) is likely to have been a hefty amount. I can't help but wonder if this drain from the population would effect a study such as this due to this material being lost from the British gene-pool and thus causing the present British population to not be a very good representative sample of what it was 400 years ago...

    best
    Last edited by Allenson; Thursday, July 3rd, 2003 at 12:26 AM.

  4. #4
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    State
    Essex Essex
    Gender
    Politics
    Putinism
    Posts
    5,212
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Thumbs Down

    Originally posted by dalonord
    Hi Volks, glad to see you back around. Anyway, I've read this study as well as the one by Weale et al. that basically concludes that there indeed was a reasonably significant male replacement at the time of Anglo-Saxon settlement in England.

    Here's my take:

    The study by Goldstein is interesting but in a way doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know......that being that the Saxons did not settle with any density in Wales, Ireland or the Highlands of Scotland. The highest incidences of Saxon type genetic markers are found indeed where history tells they settled the heaviest; that being in eastern and central England, some in the south and some also in the Lowlands of Scotland.

    I agree with you, dalonord.


    Here is another study of interest.


    British history contains several periods of major cultural change. It remains controversial as to how much these periods coincided with substantial immigration from continental Europe, even for those that occurred most recently. In this study, we examine genetic data for evidence of male immigration at particular times into Central England and North Wales. To do this, we used 12 biallelic polymorphisms and six microsatellite markers to define high-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes in a sample of 313 males from seven towns located along an east-west transect from East Anglia to North Wales. The Central English towns were genetically very similar, whereas the two North Welsh towns differed significantly both from each other and from the Central English towns.

    When we compared our data with an additional 177 samples collected in Friesland and Norway, we found that the Central English and Frisian samples were statistically indistinguishable.

    Using novel population genetic models that incorporate both mass migration and continuous gene flow, we conclude that these striking patterns are best explained by a substantial migration of Anglo-Saxon Y chromosomes into Central England (contributing 50%–100% to the gene pool at that time) but not into North Wales.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Last Online
    Saturday, April 28th, 2018 @ 05:23 AM
    Ethnicity
    Katarinensische
    Subrace
    Dinarid
    Gender
    Age
    42
    Family
    Single adult
    Posts
    1,243
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Post Re: Y chromosomes rewrite British history Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker...

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    He assumed the original inhabitants of Britain could be represented by men living in Castlerea, in central Ireland, a region not reached by any foreign invader. In a study two years ago Dr. Goldstein and colleagues established that Y chromosomes of Celtic populations were almost identical with those of the Basques.

    The Basques live in a mountainous refuge on the French-Spanish border and speak a language wholly unrelated to the Indo-European tongues that swept into Europe some 8,000 years ago, bringing the agricultural revolution of the Neolithic period. Hence they have long been regarded as likely remnants of the first modern humans to reach Europe some 30,000 years ago, during the Paleolithic.

    By this chain of reasoning, the Celtic-speaking men, since genetically very close to the Basques, must
    also be drawn from the original Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe, and probably represent the first modern human inhabitants of Britain who settled the islands some 10,000 years ago, Dr. Goldstein said. These original Britons must later have adopted from Europe both the Celtic culture, evidence of which appears from some 3,000 years ago, and the Celtic language, which is a branch of the Indo-European language family.

    Having identified Y chromosomes assumed typical of the original Britons, Dr. Goldstein and his team could assess the demographic impact of the invaders. They found that the Vikings left a heavy genetic imprint in the Orkneys, the islands off the northeast coast of Scotland, which were a center of Viking operations between A.D. 800 and 1200. Many men in York and east England carry Danish Y chromosomes. But surprisingly, there is little sign of Anglo-Saxon heritage in southern England.

    In this Goldstein's work , the variabillity among pre teutonic invaders population was not avaliated according ancient anthropology.``Celts`` were considered just as the berber-mediterranoid type, excluding the Iron-Age-Nordic type, who bought the Celtic language to Bristish Islands. Maybe blondism and nordic features in South Britain can be more related to Iron-Age Celts than Anglo-Saxons and danish Vikings


    ----------------


    from The Races of Britain




    1885
    John Beddoe



    Chapter III. Britain Before Caesar and Claudius

    ... To sum up this chapter, the natives of SOUTH BRITAIN, at the time of the Roman conquest, probably consisted mainly of several strata, unequally distributed, of Celtic- speaking people, who in race and physical type, however, partook of the tall, blond stock of Northern Europe than of the thick-set, broad-headed, dark stock which Broca has called Celtic, and which those who object to this attribution of that much-contested name may, if they like, denominate Arvernian. Some of these layers were Gaelic in speech, some Cymric; they were both superposed on a foundation principally composed of the long-headed dark races of the Mediterranean stock, possibly mingled with the fragments of still more ancient races, Mongoliform or Allophylian. This foundations layer was still very strong and coherent in Ireland and the north of Scotland, where the subsequent deposits were thinner, and in someparts, wholly or partially absent ...

  6. #6
    Senior Member Zimmer Mann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Last Online
    Monday, August 15th, 2005 @ 04:52 AM
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Location
    Indiana/L.A.
    Gender
    Age
    47
    Politics
    Logic
    Posts
    371
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Post Re: Y chromosomes rewrite British history Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker...

    I think what the study was trying to debunk was the notion that England is exclusively or upwards of 80% + Anglo-Saxon and Viking. I think the estimate of around 20% is fair for the Anglo-Saxons with the Kelts only being slightly more important.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Saturday, May 26th, 2018, 03:17 AM
  2. The Anglo Vice: Why Male Homosexuality is so Prevalent Among Anglo-Saxons
    By Roderic in forum Psychology, Behavior, & Neuroscience
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Wednesday, November 9th, 2011, 04:21 PM
  3. Replies: 46
    Last Post: Sunday, October 16th, 2011, 08:48 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: Friday, February 1st, 2008, 05:17 AM
  5. Viking map may rewrite US history
    By FadeTheButcher in forum Viking Age
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Saturday, November 27th, 2004, 08:44 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •