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Thread: The Kelts and Hair Bleaching

  1. #21
    Senior Member RedJack's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    No offense taken, mate.
    Don't let Europe Rule Britannia!

    "If we reunited, then we would be an economic and military powerhouse without peer for centuries to come."-Leofric

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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett
    Very true, except that the literary evidence suggests the Western Irish very early were able to dominate over the Eastern and truly Celtic Irish, so the Brunn were likely never made subject; it would have been impossible anyway, as it was more recently.
    The Brunns are predominant (in the sense of being the most common type) in parts of Western Ireland, but as far as I know, "true" Celts settled in both Western and Eastern Ireland and dominated over the earlier populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedJack
    He notes two types of Celts, the Gallokelten (Alpine type) and the Germanokelten ( yep, more nordid). He doesn't seem to be an extreme nordicist, though.
    I'm not sure what he means by Germanokelten, but I assume that by Gallokelten he means Gauls. From the archaeological record, we know that the Gauls were of the same physical type as the Celts in Britain and Ireland, although there were some regional exceptions in Gaul; so in general, the Gauls (and again I'm referring to the free and upper classes, who were probably a minority of the total population) were not Alpinid but were of the usual Celtic type, i.e low mesocephalic, with a low vault, sloping forehead and narrow, rather prominent nose etc.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    I'm not sure what he means by Germanokelten, but I assume that by Gallokelten he means Gauls. From the archaeological record, we know that the Gauls were of the same physical type as the Celts in Britain and Ireland, although there were some regional exceptions in Gaul; so in general, the Gauls (and again I'm referring to the free and upper classes, who were probably a minority of the total population) were not Alpinid but were of the usual Celtic type, i.e low mesocephalic, with a low vault, sloping forehead and narrow, rather prominent nose etc.
    According to Dr. P. van Emst in his book Panorama van de Wereld (1966) the celts in northern gaul (belgium/flanders) were of the alpinid sub-type, and then we can see that coon related the nordic keltic type to the frankish tribe (at least in gaul and aspecialy northern gaul), and this sub-type is nothing more than a mixture of nordid with dinardid/mediterranean/alpinid elements, so a germanic nordid mixed in old celtic regions. This is my opinion and only for the continent and more precisely for the history of my homeland, i don't know the story for the british islands at least not precicely, but one thing is for sure, the only places where we can speak of a a iron age nordic or keltic nordic are places were the celts were the first inhabitants and later mixed with the nordid germanic invaders.

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    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    RedJack[/b]]Baker, in "Race" states that the Gallokelten practised hair bleaching in order to more closely resemble their Germanokelten cousins.


    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.V.I.E.N.
    That's of course bullshit, you really believe that the celts bleached there hair to look more nordid?!


    Apparently i was wrong. This is from the races of europe.

    The descriptions of the Kelts, in Britain, in France, and in other parts of Europe, at the hands of classical authors, give us a definite picture of their pigmentation. Blondism was by no means characteristic of the Kelts as a whole. Rufosity was common, and the hair color was essentially mixed. Caesar himself noted the contrast between the ordinary Gauls and the partly Germanic Belgae, to whom he had to turn to find real blonds for his triumph. Furthermore, the Romans noted the Keltic practice of bleaching the hair to simulate a blond ideal, as in Greece.

    On the whole, the Kelts were a mixed group in race as in culture; their ancestry includes both long heads of some central European Nordic type, which was in turn a combination of several Mediterranean sub-types, and brachycephals from the region in southwestern Germany in which the Dinarics of Early Bronze Age introduction had blended with earlier round heads of Mesolithic origin. Out of this combination, the Kelts developed an easily identified national type, of considerable constancy, which was a to be of some importance in the world, especially in Britain and the nations derived from her.

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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by N.E.V.I.E.N.
    According to Dr. P. van Emst in his book Panorama van de Wereld (1966) the celts in northern gaul (belgium/flanders) were of the alpinid sub-type
    The archaeological evidence indicates otherwise, at least for what is now France, although I'm not sure about Belgium/Flanders.

    and then we can see that coon related the nordic keltic type to the frankish tribe (at least in gaul and aspecialy northern gaul)
    The Franks in Gaul were largely of the Celtic type but that may well be because the cemeteries mostly contain people of Gaulish descent. But Coon himself says that individuals of Germanic Nordic type can also be found in cemeteries of Frankish Gaul.

    and this sub-type is nothing more than a mixture of nordid with dinardid/mediterranean/alpinid elements
    That is a common theory, but I think it's quite unlikely; the Scythians, and possibly also the Indo-Aryans, were of a very similar physical type to the Celts, and I find it hard to believe that those two peoples would happen to be also a Dinarid/Med/Alpinid mixture. Also, I think such ideas may come from a time when there was much less knowledge of genetics, because if we look at it on the genetic level, such a conglomeration of types is highly unlikely to give rise to one relatively homogeneous type. It's theoretically possible, but in practice, it simply wouldn't happen as far as I can tell.

    This is my opinion and only for the continent and more precisely for the history of my homeland, i don't know the story for the british islands at least not precicely, but one thing is for sure, the only places where we can speak of a a iron age nordic or keltic nordic are places were the celts were the first inhabitants and later mixed with the nordid germanic invaders.
    Again, the archaeological evidence (from Roman and earlier times) indicates that the Gaels (in Ireland), Britons and Gauls were all generally of the same Celtic type (Coon calls it Keltic Nordic). This was before any Germanic people had entered these areas.

    Besides, the evidence from linguistics and social structure indicates that the Celts were more closely related to the Italic, and to a lesser extent, Indo-Aryan peoples than to the Germanics.

    Furthermore, the Romans noted the Keltic practice of bleaching the hair to simulate a blond ideal, as in Greece.
    That is Coon's opinion on the issue; I don't think the Romans claimed that the custom was intended to simulate a blond ideal, and as I said earlier Celtic traditions indicate that dark hair (with white skin, blue eyes etc.) was considered 'ideal'.

  6. #26
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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    attest to this.

    Some have speculated that the reason for this custom was pursuance of a "blond ideal", but the evidence from Celtic legends indicates otherwise; the ideal appearance was usually regarded as being "hair as black as a raven, skin as white as snow, and lips (or cheeks) as red as blood"; I think blue eye colour was also the most admired.
    It is true that my own family prize this as a "real Irish look" so there might be some truth to that.

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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    I have spend many vacations in Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland.

    My observations are that on average the Irish are the darkest haired. They are darkerhaired than the Scottish, English and Welsh.

  8. #28
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    Post Re: The Kelts and hair bleaching

    Quote Originally Posted by executiona9
    My observations are that on average the Irish are the darkest haired. They are darkerhaired than the Scottish, English and Welsh.
    Interesting. That is probably fairly accurate, although to some extent it could depend on the region, and on what one means by darkest.

    Wales has the highest proportion of black headed, with ten percent. England probably has the most blonds, then probably Scotland, although the percentage with black hair is perhaps a little higher in England.

    It may be that Ireland has the highest proportion of dark brown headed; at any rate, there are smaller regions in Ireland which have a higher "index of nigrescence" than any part of Britain.

    The index of nigrescence is determined by subtracting the light browns and blonds from the dark browns and twice the black; medium brown is left out of the equation.

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