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Thread: The Races of Ireland - My Theory

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    Post The Races of Ireland - My Theory

    Ok, I started off discussing Brunns elsewhere and some suggestions made along with the new info I'm learning (I've just started out on this) is making me come up with a theory to reconcile what we know of the sub-races of Europe and the Irish creation legends (which I always felt contained the basis of truth).

    Now, first of all I have looked at the Celts during their migration away from the Celtic homelands near the Alps. We know that there were two movements. One to the East and one to the West.

    To the East, we know for a fact that the Celts moved through eastern Europe, down through the Balkans to Greece and even Asia minor (Turkey).

    To the West, they moved into Gaul, the Italian peninsula, and (so the current model says) over the Pyrenees into Iberia,breeding with Iberians to form Celtiberians.

    But what if the westward moving Celts weren't the forbears of the Celtiberians. What if it was those earlier eastern moving Celts.
    The Irish legends tell us that the Milesians were originally in Greece and the Balkans with the Sycthians and others and that they settled around the Hellenic region, before being enlisted in Egypt as mercenaries, and then being expelled from there too. The Milesians then sailed west until they reached the Iberian peninsula. The tales then say they marched north, battling indigenous tribes before settling in the north (Modern day Gallicia and Asturias). From there, the Sons of Mil Espane sailed to Ireland and conquered that land.

    So the Irish legends seem to be painting a different story.
    That the Celt Iberians weren't Western Celts like the Belgae or the Gauls, but rather Celts who had came from the Eastern Mediterranian. I think this has a lot going for it.

    Now we know that the Goidelic Celts of Ireland spoke a tongue very distinct from the Brythonic Celts of Britain or the Continetal Celts (who's two tongues were much closer than they were to the Goidelic tongue).

    Current models have to explain this as Goidelic Celts being a first wave to inhabit the British Isles, and then later another Celtic invasion brining the Brythonic tongue.
    The problem however is that if the Milesians were Western Celts who had crossed the Pyrenees from Gaul, then they would likely be speaking a Brythonic tongue. If they subsequently invaded Ireland and supplanted the earlier culture then they would also bring the Brythonic tongue with them. But they didn't.
    We are told that it was the Milesians that brought the Gaelic / Goidelic tongue and culture.

    Current research suggests that the Goidelic branch is much older, probably related to the Halstatt era of Celtic civilisation.
    The Brythonic and Continental branches being later, probably associated with the La Tene era.

    If the Eastern moving Celts left during the Halstatt phase, then they would have retained that langauge and culture during their seperation from their homelands as they moved east and south through the Balkans, out of touch with developments back home where the La Tene phase had brithed a new culture and langauge.

    Bearing in mind that the La Tene Celts were more sophisticated than the Halstatt Celts and also that by the time taken for these Milesians to travel through Eastern Europe to the Eastern Med to Ireland, we may expect an already advanced Celtic society already in Ireland by the time the Milesians arrive.
    And according to the legends, there was.
    When the Tuatha De Danaan arrived in Ireland they were hailed as Gods and magicians by the more primitive Fir Bolg. We could view this as the La Tene culture arriving.
    Even more interesting is that when the Milesians conquered Ireland, they were just as astounded at how wise and skillful the Tuatha De Daanan were and also revered them as magicians and later as Gods. this would make sense if the Milesian conquerers were Halstatt Celts who had traveled from the Eastern Med without coming into contact with La Tene culture until they met the Tuatha De Daanan in Ireland. Therefore I would theorise that the Tuatha De Daanan were Brythonic Celts.

    In other words, they La Tene culture may have arrived in Ireland before the Hallstatt culture.

    Another area of interest is the Picts.
    They are something of a mystery.
    They were a short, dark race who seemed to speak a non-IndoEuropean langauge and perhaps related to the Basques.
    People have theorised that they may be the indigenous inhabitatants and the Fir Bolg of old.
    I disagree.

    Yes, the Fir Bolg were small and dark, just as the Picts are described. But the problem is that the Fir Bolg are already living in Ireland before either the Milesians (Celt-Iberians) or the Tuatha De Danaan (Brythonic Celts) arrive. They seem to be a Med-Atlantid people.

    The Picts however, according to the legends, arrive much later.
    The Milesians have already conquered the land when the Cruthin (Picts) arrive from Iberia sometime later. They ask the Milesians for some land to settle on, but the Milesians refuse. They do however give the Cruthin (Picts) an armed contingent and the wives of the Tuatha De Daanan (Brythonic Celts) and send them to settle in Alba (Scotland)

    The legends here seem to be telling us that these Cruthin (who might very well be related to Basques) were relative late in coming to Ireland and Britain. This would rule them out as being the Fir Bolg.
    It is possible that the Fir Bolg were Med Atlantids who were related to them and settled in Ireland very early on, seperating from the Basque-type people from whom the Cruthin (Picts ) came at a much later time. Therfore the Picts and Fir Bolg could be related but they are not the same people.

    My guess just now is the following:

    Fomorians = Brunn type UP people who were original natives.

    Fir Bolg = Med Atlantic type, split from Basque ancestors

    Tuatha De Danaan = Brythonic Celts from the continent via Britain

    Milesians - Eastern Hallstatt Celts from Eastern Med. Celtiberians

    Picts = Split from Basque ancestors at a later date from the Fir Bolg and were the last pre-historic people's to settle. Also Med Atlantid types.


    Can anyone tell me if that sounds plausible?
    Last edited by Milesian; Wednesday, June 25th, 2003 at 06:15 PM.

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    I'm ashamed to say I don't know too much about the Celts and where they came from.But it was an interesting read.One thing though:Jews are from the East Med too.I'd be careful making connections in that area.There's always some religious crazy looking for an origin link to the tribes of Israel.

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    Thanks for reading and responding anyway, Vigilant.
    Isuppose some religious nut might do that, but I'm not going to let that get in the way of my study of this which is something important to me.

    Such claims would not be very believable of course.
    We are talking Greece and the Balkans circa 1000 BC or before.
    This is over a thousand years before the Jewish Diaspora.
    Most if not all the Jews would be firmly in Palestine at this time

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    im in a rush right now so i didnt get to read it all properly,yet but one thing that i thought id mention is when referring to the fir bolg remember how much our ancestors believed in the daoine sidhe too

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    I know that the Picts were racially Med and non-IE linguistically; I don't know when exactly they arrived in the Isles. I cannot say what the Fir Bolg were, as I have not seen much data on them. The Kingdom of Dalriada was Pictish, right, before being displaced by Celts from Ireland? I know that Kenneth MacAlpin attempted to exterminate Picts in Scotland in the 9th century AD.
    I am *very* intrigued by your theory as to the divergence of Goidelic and Brythonic Celtic. It always perplexed me that the Brythonics seemed to come directly from France to Wales, yet were mysteriously absent in Ireland and Scotland. I also knew that Celtics existed as far east/south as coastal Turkey (Galatia I believe?). Spain was a hub of commerce and cultural interaction in pre-Roman Europe, so it is entirely possible that eastern Celts came to Ireland via Spain.

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    Scathach (like the name!),

    Well, the daoine sidhe in as much as they are the "little people" of fairy tales are a relatively modern idea.

    They represent the Tuatha De Danaan.
    The Milesians believed that after the De Danaan accepted Milesian hegemony of Ireland that they retreated under the hills, over the lakes and to the remote places (in otherwords they probably moved to the western coast and other remote areas).

    We remember how the Milesian's were amazed at the Danaan's knowledge and craftsmanship. In time as the Danaan faded from memory, legend replaced reality and they became the gods and goddesses of the Gaels.
    In later times, once pagan beliefs were not acceptable, they transformed from being gods to being mischevious little fairy folk.


    Fionn:

    If I know my Scottish history correct, Dalriada was a Gaelic Scots kingdom. It existed in two parts, one on each side of the Irish seas. at the Convention of Druimm Ceat - Scottish Dalriada became independant. The Picts lived in the more North - North Eastern parts of Scotland.
    According to my theory, the Picts left Ireland and went to Scotland long before the Ulaid and Airghialla clans left Ireland in the first centuries AD. Therefore according the theory, the Picts should be in Scotland before the Gaels. But they should still be late comers to Ireland. They would have arrived in Ireland after even the Milesians, but were the first to go to Scotland.
    If there was anyone living in Scotland before the Picts arrived then I would think either Brythonic Celts or perhaps UP people.

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    Originally posted by Milesian
    Scathach (like the name!),

    Well, the daoine sidhe in as much as they are the "little people" of fairy tales are a relatively modern idea.

    They represent the Tuatha De Danaan.
    The Milesians believed that after the De Danaan accepted Milesian hegemony of Ireland that they retreated under the hills, over the lakes and to the remote places (in otherwords they probably moved to the western coast and other remote areas).

    We remember how the Milesian's were amazed at the Danaan's knowledge and craftsmanship. In time as the Danaan faded from memory, legend replaced reality and they became the gods and goddesses of the Gaels.
    In later times, once pagan beliefs were not acceptable, they transformed from being gods to being mischevious little fairy folk.

    .
    hehe,dont worry i have a weird sense of humour i was joking about the fairies
    although irish folklore and mythology is the best there is and im not even being biased....really!
    www.shee-eire.com

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    Oops!
    I knew you were joking! Of course I did!:}

    I always wondered if my family had a Bean Sidhe.
    Don't suppose I really want to find out!

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    haha that would be a skeleton in a closet LOL!
    i asked you this in another thread but you probably didnt see it - are you also royal milesian from sf ireland?

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    - Yeah it sure would! Or maybe a Dullahan in the closet!

    Sorry,
    I meant to answer that earlier. Yup, 'tis the one and same.
    Are you on SF as well?
    What do you think of it?
    This site seems a bit more highbrow if I'm honest, which I prefer.

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