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Thread: The Nordic Origins Megathread

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    Arrow The Nordic Origins Megathread

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V13.htm

    Another Bronze Age event of racial movement was the gradual disappearance through amalgamation of the Corded people and of the Danubians, and the emergence of an intermediate long-headed form. This latter, which inhabited the immense stretch of territory from Germany and Austria to the Altai Mountains, occupied an intermediate position in the total roster of greater Mediterranean racial variations.

    In Austria and Bohemia the high vault and narrow face of both Corded and Danubian strains persisted, but from southern Russia over to the Altai, the vaults were lower and the faces broader. Two variants thus appeared, a western and an eastern. There is evidence that the eastern group, at least, was partly if not prevailingly blond. Both eastern and western divisions may with some confidence be compared to the "Nordic" peoples who appeared historically during the Iron Age.

    At the end of the Bronze Age, for a period of two or three centuries, the pall of cremation falls over the racial history of Europe. When the smoke has lifted during the Early Iron Age, we shall see what changes have taken place during this period of darkness.

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    Post SLAVS

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI7.htm

    If the evidence of literary sources makes the early Slavs Nordic in stature and pigmentation, that of ostcology makes them the same in the metrical and morphological sense. In brief, all of the earliest Slavic skeletal material, dating mostly from the eighth to the eleventh centuries, falls, by ,groups if not as individuals, into one or more of the Nordic categories already found to be characteristic of Iron Age Indo-Europeanspeaking peoples.

    That from Poland, the eastern half of which was included in the home of the Slavic peoples before their period of dispersion, is not very abundant. Altogether less than 40 male crania may be assembled, and few of these have complete measurements.103 (See Appendix I, col. 46.) These skulls are all predominantly dolichocephalic; the mean cranial index is 73, and not a single round-headed example is included. Among these Polish skulls are some notably long and large specimens Nvith long. narrow faces. The noses of the ,group, as a whole, are fully leptorrhine. On the whole, the ancestral Slavs of Poland were Nordics, within the range of the Indo-European group; these skulls lean to the longer- and larger-headed Corded extreme, and resemble in many respects, the Hannover series, and by extension, the Anglo-Saxons.

    ...In intermediate parts of Germany, particularly in western Prussia and Pomerania, the Old Slavic skulls are higher vaulted, and closer in this respect to the Polish sub-type.105

    Those in Bohemia are for the most part the same as the Wend crania in Germany, except for one series of Matiegka (see Appendix I, col. 48); in this, the vaults are extremely high, nearly reaching early Corded dimensions. This is true to a minor extent of a small group from Slovakia and of individual skulls.106 Thus, in Bohemia, the Slavs included three sub-types, with Hallstatt, Polish, and Keltic analogies.

    Some of the Slavic crania from Styria, recalling the Polish prototype, are extremely large and powerful. We have, unfortunately, no data with which to trace the further progress of the southern Slavs into the Dinaric mountain stronghold, and thence into Old Serbia and the Kossovo plain. We rnay, however, study a third Slavic movement, that which penetrated Russia.108

    The skulls of these invaders belong to a generalized Nordic form, with a cranial index of 75 to 76, and an intermediate vault height. The Ukrainian skulls from the eighth to the ninth centuries A.D. do not greatly diverge from this general standard, but the early Slavic crania from the Moscow region in Russia, dated from the eleventh to twelfth centuries A.D., are, in fact, almost purely dolichocephalic, with a mean cranial index of 73.5.

    Actually, Coon is speaking here about Slavo-Baltic mix. Further to East Slavs retained their Corded Race with BHI 100

    On the whole, the Slavic racial type, as exemplified by skeletal series from Poland, Germany, Bohemia, Austria, and Russia, was reasonably uniform.

    That's due to Germanic, Keltic and Baltic non-Corded admixture

    In view of its geographical location, the Polish group probably represents most nearly the original form, while those who expanded southward and westward absorbed local Keltic and other Indo-European-speaking populations.

    True, new materials also evidence that Slavs were of the Corded racial type

    The Slavs, like all the other Indo-European-speaking peoples whom we have been able to trace, were originally Nordic, and there is no suggestion in their early remains, in the regions studied, of the numerically predominant brachycephalic racial increments which today are considered typically Slavic.

    Up to 50% of Russians are dolicho-mesocephalic, the rest is mainly sub-brachycephalic

    Most of the Slavs retained their original dolichocephalic cranial form until at the earliest the thirteenth, and the latest the fifteenth, century. At that time, those who inhabited Russia and central Europe grew progressively brachycephalic, at a rapid but consistent rate. Well-documented series from Bohemia and the Moscow government show how this change progressed from century to century, so that normal means of 73 to 75 rose as high as 83 by the nineteenth. Few Slavs were spared this change, which was parallel to that which affected the southern Germans and other peoples of central and eastern Europe

    And where were Northen Germans and Swedes? On the Moon???

    Although it took place in the full light of late mediaeval and modern history, no one fully satisfactory explanation has vet been offered.

    That's what is called EVOLUTION

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    Post Nordid Racial Origins

    Earnest Albert Hooton (PhD at Wisconsin in 1911, studied anthropology as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, hired by Harvard resurrect Physical Anthropology Program) wrote in 1926 about race:

    "A race is a great division of mankind, the members of which, though individually varying, are characterized as a group by a certain combination of morphological and metrical features, principally non-adaptive, which has been derived from their common descent."

    A people is not the same as a race; race is a purely biological term, and although we can all understand that it has social implications, this doesn't mean that the term itself is only of social value. Language, nationality, culture and belief systems exist irrespective of one's race. But, in the case of race, we have a folk, which is the bonding of the same blood (meaning race), soil (but not always, if a group emigrated and yet kept the old traditions), the same language, culture and customs and history.

    A division of races of the always mobile human race is in broad outlines and is resistant to perfect deliniation, newer or older. Race is given to flowing transitions on one hand, and much local deviation in isolated groups, on the other hand. This is at least the case with the draw up of races within the greater racial groups (e.g. Europid and Mongolid). Some mixture and variation is inevitable.

    On the whole, as elsewhere, both dogmatism and pure scepticism yield little use - one must realise the relative and merely pedagogical value in many racial groupings.

    Racial names should end in -id, thus Nordid or Mediterranid race instead of Nordic or Alpine (which also designate geographical regions).

    Nordid is a convention (not meaning that it doesn't exist in reality, but an agreement of which convergent set of features make up the type), like all races, and not all types who look Nordid need to have a clear cut common root (but it is likely that they share more with each other than other types). It’s the same outward appearance that we see, and the idiotype (hereditary formation can differ from one individual to the other).

    "The designations "Nordid skull" and "Nordid race" were first employed and carefully described by Fürst in his publications from 1910 and 1912. The basis of the term "Nordid race" is in part its geographical association with the north, in part its inclusion of the three characteristics dolichocephaly, tall stature and fair complexion." [The Nordic skull and the Nordic Race, a Retrospect by KE Schreiner, "Crania Norvegica II" (1946)]

    The big-bodied, long-skulled and blondish group in the so called Nordid race, in spite of all polymorphism:

    Bertil Lundman considered that it arose from a mixture of southwestern Cro-Magnoid low-skulled and southeastern high-skulled, probably mostly with incoming groups together with the Proto-Indo-Europeans (PIE). It's also noticed on the fairly stongly dropping Height-Length Index (HLI) from Estonia to Jylland and Friesland, evidently irrespective of other mixtures. The low-skulled element is widely predominant, with the exception of all the easternmost groups, so the Nordid race is therefore put in together with the low-skulled Western Europids.

    The Europid race can be divided into two general types: a low-skulled Atlantic and a higher-skulled "Caspian" circle. There is no such tangible and compelling example for the Negrid and Amerind racial group.

    The base of the Scandinavian Stone Age humans came from Central Germany, from the transition region between the eastern high-skulled and the western low skulls, although they stand closer to the latter. The oldest agriculture culture in Sweden is also thought to have been initiated in Central Germany based on archaeological views (Lindqvist), in other respects much earlier than thought before or nearly 3000 BC. Later, we had increments of Battle-Axe people from southeast, as well as via Skĺne (Scania) as through Estonia, SE Finland and Ĺland to Eastern Sweden.

    Type variation within the Nordid race has been so considerable since its origin that one can nowadays hardly exclusively connect every one of all of its modern variations and sub-variations to a particular one of the probable forefathers. The facial form in the Nordid race is not in relation with the extremely non-changeable HLI.

    Think of the both very narrow-faced and low-skulled western Swedes and many similar types in England and also Friesland.

    Lundman developed the opinions of Scheidt (1924, especially about the head lenghts significance) and Saller regarding the descendants of the Cro-Magnon (meaning "big cliff", represents the earliest modern humans from western Europe).

    In 1868 a fossil skull was discovered in the rock shelter of Cro-Magnon in southwestern France, (http://faculty.uca.edu/~benw/biol44...e12b/sld021.htm) and Brünn (or Brno in Mähren/Moravia/Morava is a southeasten Czech city and archaeological site where Upper Palaeolithic skeletal remains were discovered). The Cro-Magnon race in south France was approximately 175 cm (5'9), sometimes more, Breadth-Length Index (BLI) approximately 74; HLI approximately 70-71; broad face and strong chin, etc. The Brünn (sometimes called Aurignician because of scattered finds in France) was approximately 165 cm (5'5); BLI appoximately 70-71; HLI approximately 75; broad face, but sometimes more narrow than the previous one; chin less strongly developed, etc.

    Their mutual age is uncertain, but the eastern group perhaps go back the furthest in time and at times it even show Neanderthaloid features. It is considered in general that they both came eastwards, so a closer relation with the Neanderthals would not exist. One might refer in this respect to the highly developed type, almost without interference of more primitive forms, for Cro-Magnon especially on its developed chin, for Brünn on its high crown.

    The Breslau anatomist Klaatsch considered the Cro-Magnon to be a crossbreed of Neanderthal and Brünn, his views have met opposition, however, mainly for bio-geographical reasons. The high-skulled Brünn race in Eastern Europe was mainly tied to the steppe regions, so one can hardly doubt that it's identical with the kernel of the high skulls that pushed towards the northwest from Asia and then north of the then Aralo-Caspian ocean, but also to some extent westwards into North Africa. The reach of the Brünn race into the westernmost part of Europe was not sufficiently strong enough to reatain its own type, but assimilated with the native people and Cro-Magnon came about because of this. The HLI of the two parental races is approximately 62 and 75, and for Cro-Magnon approximately 70. Whether there were once "original races" can hardly be affirmed today; at least our present state of knowledge does not justify us in making definite assertions which lack convincing proof. From this it appears that the concept of race does not describe something fixed and unchangeable, but something in a perpetual state of flux, something continually being made over. So one scheme might not be more correct than the other, and we have to simplify all the local variations of the isolated elements within the folk stocks according to the average type.

    Race is ever changing, thus a dynamic phenomenon, and strict bio-geographical zones are very simplified. Saller emphasised the facial forms nonvariability and underestimated the head height importance as a more constant racial marker. The last contribution in these questions are from Perret, he develop more finite, completely morphological viewpoints, and have hardly incorporated the other scientists’ pioneering investigations.

    From Lundman's scheme of the Nordid from "Jordens Folkstammar" (The Ethnic Groups of the World, 1988):

    More or less blond:

    Long-skulled, tall stature: Nordic race (better: Nordid race) with several sub-races, among others the Skando-Nordid, the broad-faced Falid and the dark-haired (but light-eyed and light-skinned) North-Atlantid. The Skando-Nordid (long-skulled and low-skulled) can be divided into the Göta (Gothic in English, first coined by Flodström, also called Österdal or Řsterdal by Bryn, named after a valley in Eastern Norway, skeletal remains were discovered in the Austrian village Hallstatt, thus sometimes called that as well), Västmanland and Trönder folk stocks (named after regions where the respective types dominate), which are variations of the Nordid race. The Trönder type in Southern Norrland (e.g. Hälsingland) have more of the high-skulled element which is a trait of the eastern group, thus being closer to the East-Nordids (long-skulled and high-skulled).

    The Västmanlandid type can be considered to be a Falid variety, so what is left of the true (or what make it specific) Skando-Nordid is the Göta type, which is only numerous and dominant in SW Sweden (Västergötland) and perhaps the neighbouring parts of SE Norway.

    Coon's Keltic Nordic is Lundman's North-Atlantid.

    The sub-races above are all in the low-skulled Cro-Magnoid or Atlantic racial circle, while the so called East-Nordids (and the Scandinavian Trönder could be put in this group, as it is higher-skulled, HLI of at least 71-73) are thought to have their origin in the Brünn race. But the Swedish Trönder folk stock is in a so called bipolar Nordid-Alpinid stock, not meaning that the Trönder type itself is mixed with a brachycephalic element, as Alpinid, rather that it's a mixed folk stock. Some types of the East-Nordids are the Aistins and/or various Baltid types like Valdai-Ilmen type, which can be divided into Valdai and Ilmen-Dnepr types, although a strong brachycephalisation process occured, and the latest one was in the Middle Ages. The Corded-Ceramic people are generally regarded as a rather important component of the Indo-European core. As Lundman wrote in the chapter "The Racial History of Europe: An Outline" of his "The Races and Peoples of Europe",

    "This proto-Indo-European East-Nordid race has now almost disappeared. This is evidently a consequence of the forceful - one might say "explosive"- expansion of the Indo-European peoples. Some living high-skulled Nordid types in Poland, Russia, Finland, and the East Baltic region can be derived from the proto-Indo-European East-Nordids. Thus, not all of the living high-skulled peoples of this part of Europe can be regarded as mixtures of the Scando-Nordid (or East-Mediterranean) and East-Baltid (or Dinarid) races."

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    Smile Nordic Origins Megathread

    There has obviously been more work on this topic than I can possibly recount. So, I just want to get an idea what others think.
    Coon and Grant say that Nordics are depigmented Meds and not UP at all. More specifically, Coon says that Nordics are the original IEs, a hybrid of Danubians and Battle Axe people, both of whom he says are divergent Meds.
    I doubt this theory for a couple reasons. First, it seems unlikely that Nordics evolved their blonde/blue depigmentation and then migrated en masse in a northward direction. If they migrated first and THEN evolved the depigmentation, that would have taken longer than is currently accepted for the presence of Nordics in Europe.
    Linguistically, Meds were originally non-IE, as evidenced by remnants of the Basque and Pictish languages. In contrast, Baltic languages are the closest to ancient Indo-European of any language existing (excepting Sanskrit, perhaps). Both Germanic and Slavic languages seem to have come from Baltic languages.
    More recently, genetic evidence also indicates that Nordics are much more similar to UPs than they are to any Meds.


    So, what I am curious about is:
    How close are Nordics to Neo-Danubians? I suspect they are closer than many currently believe. The SNPA description of ND's as 'peripheral nordish' is a political choice reflecting an anti-Eastern bias, not a valid anthropological decision.
    Did Nordics and Neo-Danubians originate in the same region of southern Russia and Ukraine? Are either of them tied to the darker Pontids in any way? I tend to be skeptical of this. Where do Battle Axes tie in to Nordics and ND's?
    How closely, and by what path, are the robust UP's related to the more gracile Nordics, ND's and BA's?
    Why is the Hallstatt site right in the middle of the *ALPS* listed as a hub of the Nordic race? Was some strange migration route taken to get there? If so, why is there not more evidence of Nordics in Austria, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
    I will probably think of more questions as this thread progresses, hopefully. I just wanted to introduce some topics for discussion.

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    Post Re: Great Big Nordic Origins Megathread

    Originally posted by Fionn mac Cumhaill

    Linguistically, Meds were originally non-IE, as evidenced by remnants of the Basque and Pictish languages.
    And also Hebrew, Arabic, Pheoncian, Egyptian -- all non-IE Med as well.

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    Post

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV2.htm

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV8.htm

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV9.htm

    Corded is depigmented Pontid

    Why do you think that Meds were not originally Indo-European speakers? I thought UPs were not IE speakers.

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    Basque and Pictish have been shown to be non-IE. Indo-European languages were brought relatively late to the western Mediterranean by invading tribes from the East.
    It seems possible or probable that western UPs spoke non-IE languages, but Baltic types spoke a language that was the closest to old IE of any in Europe.
    I'm tired of reading the same old stuff from SNPA, it's not terribly accurate. Coon is quite biased, and ignorant of Eastern Europe. His claim that Nordids are depigmented Meds has been disproven by modern genetics. I was hoping for fresh perspectives...

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    Post

    Corded and Danubian type


    What puzzles me is on what criteria one distinguishes so immediately
    a Corded from a Danubian type, since the Danubian type who some
    reckons as Nordic(Reche), while others rank it as Proto-Mediterrenean
    (Vallois, et.al.), interesting would also be the validation of the
    Danubian in relation to the Corded type.
    How would one be expected to seperate them properly, since deviation
    diagrams of several series of Corded and Central European LBK series
    allow for biological continuity, hence in the course of centuries
    some Danubians evolved into the Corded Ware type; not all Danubians
    were small build, some like the Genay type attained an average of
    175cm and the Corded is as a rule tall.
    The Danubians were medium to high-vaulted and this characteristic is
    repeated in the Corded, albeit, that Kossinna very interestingly,
    describes them as flat-topped and the raised vault would be the
    consequence of mingling with restants of Danubians and in a later
    phase with the Bell Beaker folk, another effect are the nevertheless
    exceptional
    shorthening of the cranium.
    Both Danubians and Corded, and you may count in the Aunjetitzer
    Nordics, have a rounded ellipsoid head form, with flattened
    parientals, the so-called "Kokonform".The main difference lay in the
    head dimensions, the Corded is much more longer-headed, but the
    Danubian tends to narrower head breadth.
    The Danubian has a very narrow face, but the Corded is higher; both,
    however, are mesorhine.
    One is to believe that the Corded perpetuals the incipient Nordic
    strain in the Danubian LBK- population, while the smaller version
    mayhave gone through a processus of alpinisation to a virtual high-
    headed, infantilized but blondish Gorid type which permeates part of
    the Slavonic population in Central and East Europe in the Alpine and
    Carpathian mountain range and thus as far as deep into Massif
    Central of France!
    Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic and
    Proto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early
    Neolithic LBK folk, may vouch for the "Altindogermanisch" nature of
    the Danubians, the more since the area occupied by them show in
    terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and
    are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE
    languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has
    been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.
    Literature:

    Lothar Killian, De l'origine des Indo-Européens, Paris, 2OOO.
    John V. Day, Indo-European Origins: The Anthropological Evidence,
    Washington D.C., 2001.
    Gustaf Kossinna, Ursprung und verbreitung der Germanen in vor -und
    fruehgeschichtlicher Zeit, Leipzig, 1936.
    FG

    as we can see both corded and danubeans were high vault. the central, halstat, type is low vault. Coon just underestimates the UP contibution to his nordic.
    coons east baltic is high vault coon considers it to be a mixture of danubean (mediterranean) and mongoloid before a depigmentation took place.
    in fact, Coon is just sometimes diplomatic in his expressions. he sees danubeans as the gracilizing agent in the upper paleolithic gene pool. i definitely dislike this word gracilization and sometimes asked people to define gracilization, but let me simply explain it is the decrease in the bony structure and seems to be narrowing of the face. sometimes a thin face is considered to be gracile than a fleshy face, that is definitely untrue. we cannot talk abut gracilization unless it is proven that there is bony gracilization. this is a bit sensitive situation, for sometimes the difference between a dinaric and an arabid is just the fleshy part of the face.
    Coons nordic is UP gracilized (altered, as i said i dislike this word GRACILIZATION) by mediterranean. in this sense troender is very central it lies between Halstat and west baltic and perhaps east baltic .(HL)
    coons mediterraneans, the danubeans, are ancient mediterranean mixture. it has nothing to do with the %2 mediterranean mixture in germany.
    because gracilization or brachycephalization we talk about can only take place by natural selection, for we have not been able to prove that any aquired feature is coded genetically to pass the offspring. narrower faces than would have to be able to produce more offsprings on the basis of ,say ,sexaul selection, who cares about a narrower face in a world of broad faces. this is as meaningfull if we consider the chinese point of view about those northern tribes. or once there was a massacre for some people were broader faced some people were narrower faced.

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    Post Re: Great Big Nordic Origins Megathread

    Originally posted by Fionn mac Cumhaill
    Why is the Hallstatt site right in the middle of the *ALPS* listed as a hub of the Nordic race? Was some strange migration route taken to get there? If so, why is there not more evidence of Nordics in Austria, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
    I will probably think of more questions as this thread progresses, hopefully. I just wanted to introduce some topics for discussion.
    Fionn, this is interesting,

    "The Hallstatt culture spread in many directions, including the southeast, where it penetrated Bosnia, and eventually Albania. It moved slowly northward, until it reached the Scandinavian and North German area, bringing iron to these regions relatively late; while to the southwest, it crossed France and penetrated Catalonia. To the immediate south, it likewise spread over the Alps into Italy, where the invading Illyrians split into a number of local tribal groups, including the Veneti. It would be foolish to claim that every site with Hallstatt cultural remains carries the bones or ashes of Illyrian speakers. This may only with certainty be asserted for the central area, and for the regions immediately adjacent, while in the west it is fairly certain that some of the peoples in a Hallstatt level of culture were actually Kelts. "

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm

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    Excellent topic.

    I also doubt the theory about Nordics being med-derived. After reading TRoE I rather stupidly believed Coon's theory without really checking out any other points of view.
    It would be interesting to read about some of the tests you mention, Fionn. Do you have any links or sources you could post?

    Coon does not always state his theories plainly, but based on certain 'hints' he gives I feel that he was of the opinion that the original Danubians were a 'northern' (relatively-speaking) strain of the 'Med Proper' group that entered Europe during the Mesolithic, and the "Battle Axe" type was a northern strain of the "Megalithic Med" group.
    (Note: I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. I'm only interpreting what I believe Coon's views to be on the topic).

    As far as a close tie between Nordics and NDs goes, I think it would depend on what exactly the origins of the Nordic type are. If Coon is correct then obviously the Nordic and ND types are closely related. One could even say that both are Danubian derivatives: Nordic = Danubian + BA and Neo-Danubian = Danubian + Ladogan.
    However if the Nordic is UP-derived, then I would say that the NDs and Nordics are not very closely related at all (at least when compared to the relationship between Nordics and Brunns).

    BTW: Very nice post, Asparukh! You seem to know a lot about this very interesting topic.

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