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Thread: Patriotism or Nationalism?

  1. #11
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    I support nationalism over patriotism. The people are more important than the state. A state should exist to serve the people, not the people the state. In serving the state we should be serving our people not some abstract, impersonal hierarchy. States come and ago, names are changed, borders redefined, but the people endure.

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    I don't profess to be that smart about such matters, but I don't like the direction my country is headed in. But I love my people, and those people who are at least trying to make life better for future generations.
    Not all in life is at it appears to be.

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    I'm very suspicious of automatic patriotism (ie, not thought out). For example, I view pretty much all western democracies in modern times as being part of a globalist new world order agenda and causing wars I do not agree with (every war in the middle east since 9/11 was the key allowing public opinion to get behind their goals ... these wars should be seen as illegal ...and they have destabilized many nations, increased terrorism, caused huge numbers of so-called "refugees" to flock to Europe .... perhaps all of these things were part of the plan of the Globalists).

    So I am not patriotic to Canada since they are part of it. I would not be patriotic to my nation if I disagree with what they do. I live in Canada , the land .... but my feelings towards my government and my nation as a concept aren't very high.

    After researching World War I and World War II more (and not the mainstream safe ideas they keep feeding us) I am more non-patriotic to my side of things (ie, Canadian and being pushed to believe the teachings of the victorious allies as "the good guys").



    I feel that I have looked at too much negative stuff .... I find i hard to be patriotic to a nation when it's doing things I disagree with.


    I guess I still feel glad that Canada is a reasonably stable place when I read about the many locations that are far worse.

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    Nation is a very precise word, Bernhard. It refers to birth - and place of origin. There's no two ways of interpreting it. However, since people may consider their religion their nation, see Muslims and the Umma, I spoke of "people" and a social network. But that's not nationalism and Muslims who believe in a politically unified Umma are anti-nationalist by principle, they believe the national borders are what is keeping the Umma divided and weak.

    But the nation is not completely prior to the state, since it is itself (at least partly) created - or perhaps molded - by the state.
    That's not the nationalist position. I would even go so far as to call it the ultimate heresy. What you say sounds like the French take on nationalism, not the German(ic) - German(ic) nationalism revolves around ethnos. It's an argument some liberal ideologues use from time to time and it's something progressives may believe - they couldn't be more wrong. States are created by nations, not the other way around. States do not produce genuine nations. A nation exists before the creation of a state or it doesn't exist at all. Although some states certainly have tried to create a people where there is none, see France, wrecking actual nations in the process. The social network exists before the state. It's not the state which decides we will have a nation - nations are formed by blood, culture and shared suffering. Not by government decree.

    Nationalism is foremost the political unity of state and nation.
    That only comes second or third. Nationalism is foremost the desire to create a state for a stateless nation. I suppose those who have their own independent state, like the Dutch, don't understand that as well as their ancestors once did or like Flemings still do today. What happens after obtaining an independent state is much more diffuse. Afterwards, when the revolution is over, you get non-nationalists participating in the nationalist project of the state. For example: George Washington, a nationalist, created the American state, but Obama (not a nationalist) ran it, still using the same symbols early American nationalists relied upon. And yet he was nothing but a direct threat to the political unity of the Anglo-American state and nation.

    After the revolution, the state is there to safeguard the existence of the nation and it remains a platform for action for the nation. The nation state is an end point in history, there's nothing that comes after it. Tribes form nations, nations create states, states defend the nation. That's not what's happening anymore in the West though, as Europeans and American elites are trying to replace actual nation-states with supranational institutes resembling he Belgian state - and Belgium is only federal in name.

    Although one can be nationalistic without desiring an independent state - but that's a different topic, perhaps - the moment any supranational institute, such as the French state, starts to impose itself on its citizens, anyone outside of Ile de France should definitely oppose the government.

    Hence the notion of nationalism as the creation of a state by the nation is a problematic simplification since the nation already presumes the state. In this sense the Italian fascists had a point in recognizing the important role of the state in relation to the nation. This is also why it is important to recognize jacobin nationalism as a legitimate form of nationalism (and perhaps even the original one).
    Let's ask the Tirolers whether the Italian fascists had a point. Better yet, let's ask Sigurd.

    This Franco-Italian, Latin philosophy is not a legitimate form of nationalism to me, it's something all nationalists should detest. You can't create a new nation from scratch and while trying you would destroy the heritage of people belonging to already existing nations, terrorising their unwilling citizenry.

    (and perhaps even the original one)
    I prefer to look at ancient Greece for the original proto-nationalism(s). The American revolution predates the French revolution at any rate, and it was a genuine ethnonationalist rebellion. I appreciate original American and German nationalisms, but not the French. Romantic German nationalism belongs to the same era anyway.

    There's no real French nation beyond Ile de France and there will never be. Bretons, Occitans, Alsatians, Flemings, Basques ... they already belong to actual flesh and blood nations and they don't necessarily like French "state nationalism".

    Many types of ethnonationalism tend to be unwillingly influenced by this jacobin element and the idea that ethnonationalism is real nationalism and state nationalism is fake nationalism makes us unable to see this influence.
    Rightwing jacobinism is a thing - there's no doubt there's overlap between these positions mentioned. Yet state and civic nationalisms are fake, the more centralist in nature, the faker they are. Belgium is a fake nation and so is France, there's no such thing as Belgians or Frenchmen. If the citizens aren't linked by at the very least meta-ethnicity there's no reason to talk of a nation. Yugoslavia was a nation of sorts, it was the state of the South-Slavs - while Austria-Hungary was never a nation.

    Modern France was founded on the ruins of what once was a strong dynastic state - the revolutionaries took over the territories of the king. Several different nations were living on that territory and that's happenstance to an extent. Unlike the French kings, who couldn't care less about which ethnicity their subjects belonged to (and hence didn't actively romanize their country, letting the nations be), these revolutionaries forced unity and conformity upon all these nations that happened to live in the new France, with mixed results - the rest is history. We Flemings lost all of southern Flanders thanks to "molding" (= prohibiting people from practicing their language and culture) because of the French revolution and if Napoleon had triumphed all of Flanders would've ended up like the Flemings in the south. Like Occitans and Bretons, we'd be speaking French today while at the same time resenting the French authority.

    The actual nationalist struggle in France is the struggle against the centralists from Paris. Original German and American nationalisms were never the enemy of the people, the citizenry, ...quite unlike French centralism which has a long history of coercing "minorities", those citizens who inhabit areas outside of the center of the country.
    "Beauty is a form of genius, higher, indeed, than genius, as it needs no explanation." - Oscar Wilde

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    If this explains those terms rightly?

    http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-patriotism/

    ...then I support patriotism and hate nationalism. Russian nationalism is very good example of the latter one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    If this explains those terms rightly?

    http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-patriotism/
    In my opinion, no. Nationalism merely demands love and commitment to one's Nation, and holds no intrinsic chauvinism or ideas of superiority. Even the people of the most poor and failed Nation can rightfully be Nationalists, as long as they set the concerns of their own people first, and aim to preserve and cherish their ethnic identity.

    That article is just a poor hit piece on the term 'Nationalism', aiming to smear its name.
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
    A wave of passionate energy which unites past, present and future generations

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    If this explains those terms rightly?

    http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-patriotism/

    ...then I support patriotism and hate nationalism. Russian nationalism is very good example of the latter one.
    No, it's leftist rubbish, discard it, FS. It's supposed to portray nationalism as something evil, while patriotism, which sounds better in American mainstream ears, is portrayed as more wholesome, at the same time reducing a nation to shared values and beliefs, so diversity isn't put into question. Values and beliefs are not the primary building blocks of a nation, the nation is not something abstract, it's not something out there. It's you and your family and families like yours. Furthermore: Russian patriots oppressed the Finns, while Finnish nationalists liberated their country.

    Some quotes from that article:

    "Nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life."
    That is not nationalism and a patriot can feel that way too.

    Just look at this, whoever wrote this has not the faintest clue about this subject and never looked into it - it's a childish/kindergarten teacher take on nationalism and patriotism, putting them in good and bad categories - making it a matter of emotions and morality.

    Patriotism is based on affection and nationalism is rooted in rivalry and resentment. One can say that nationalism is militant by nature and patriotism is based on peace.
    This makes me unironically angry:

    Nationalism makes one try to find justification for mistakes made in the past, while patriotism enables people to understand both the shortcomings and improvements made.

    Patriot: Expresses the emotion of love towards his country in a passive way

    Nationalist: Strives for independence and the interests and domination of a nation and expresses his love or concern for the country in an active political way
    Well, that's pretty retarded all-around.
    "Beauty is a form of genius, higher, indeed, than genius, as it needs no explanation." - Oscar Wilde

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Furthermore: Russian patriots oppressed the Finns, while Finnish nationalists liberated their country.
    And those ''Russians'' who hurrayed then Russia occupied Crimea and some of them went to say: Give us next 3 Baltic countries, Poland and Finland?
    Were those guys (who adores Russian imperialism) more patriots or nationalists? No matter what, the media calls them nationalists. And I think big mass of people thinks so too. Right or wrong.

    BTW: Is Vladimir Žirinovski more patriot or nationalist?

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    To me, patriotism is pride in your countries past achievements. Nothing wrong with that, but that alone is not enough to base my political opinions on. That alone can lead to supremacy ideologies, as much as I love my own people, I don’t hate others. I respect those worthy of respect.

    Nationalism takes patriotism and fuses it with the ideals of our ancestors greatest thinkers, as well as promoting the protection of those of the same nationality.

    I would call myself a Nationalist, and would say that the default nature of every healthy-minded human is that of a Nationalist. The majority of Globalists are brainwashed, and those that actively propagate Globalism are at best mentally ill, and at worst actively trying to destroy all other nationalities for their own profit.

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