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Thread: Patriotism or Nationalism?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Uwe Jens Lornsen's Avatar
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    This is a difficult question , since I never have thought of cleaving their cores .

    To me both mean the same or similar at first thought .


    Thinking further , I would start to think , what Pater / patricharchial would mean ( or Mater / maternial ) :

    Patre should depict a family clan , which of course has racial and ethnical elements in it .

    A Nation would be an assembly of family clans , assembled by military force or voluntary choice .
    In this way a nation could consist of several races and ethicities .

    And such a nation could join another nation of either mixed or pure ethnicities and races .

    In that way a nation could grow to a large assembly of many races and ethnicities , leading to a Multi-Cultural Nation .


    A nation in this sense has no pure culture , as our Western European nations usually were culturally divided into
    Christian Protestants and Christian Katholics .


    A State usually is a Political System , that administers the nation of patriachial and matriarchal clans .


    In this sense , I believe , that Patriots and Nationalists are too rough describing a federation of assemblies .
    Culturalists in the sense of Customs , Religionalists for the Psychic Wellbeing and Ideologists for the Administration and political system
    would add more preciseness towards that matter .
    Mk 10:18 What do you call me a good master, no-one is good .

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Nation is a very precise word, Bernhard. It refers to birth - and place of origin. There's no two ways of interpreting it.
    Yes there is. First of all, there is historical evidence that shows that the word nation has had a variety of interpretations. For example, during the middle ages the term 'Hungarian nation' referred to the politically relevant part of Hungary at that time, the aristocracy. It did not refer to the Hungarian ethnos as a whole.
    Next to the historic use of the term, there also a variety of uses in political theory. F.e. compare Spengler's interpretation of it in comparison with the nationalsocialist one.

    One can argue about these interpretations, but ignoring their existence is theoretical laziness and historically it's simply wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    That's not the nationalist position. I would even go so far as to call it the ultimate heresy. What you say sounds like the French take on nationalism, not the German(ic) - German(ic) nationalism revolves around ethnos.
    You're position seems confusing to me. It is not nationalism, but it is the French take on nationalism? Isn't that also a type of nationalism then? It's true that French nationalism was on the statist end and Germanic nationalisms generally have been on the ethnic end of the spectrum. But by characterizing my words as representative of the French type, you ignore the relevance of degree implied by my words 'at least partly'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    It's an argument some liberal ideologues use from time to time and it's something progressives may believe - they couldn't be more wrong. States are created by nations, not the other way around. States do not produce genuine nations. A nation exists before the creation of a state or it doesn't exist at all. Although some states certainly have tried to create a people where there is none, see France, wrecking actual nations in the process. The social network exists before the state. It's not the state which decides we will have a nation - nations are formed by blood, culture and shared suffering. Not by government decree.
    Here the same problem arises, it's not a black and white scenario. What liberal ideologues do wrong is to claim that the nation is a creation out of nothing and therefore historically arbitrary. But to take into account the influence of modern state infrastructures on the development of the nation is simply the result of historical investigation. You use social network as synonymous to the nation. May I ask, which social network?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    That only comes second or third.
    My phrase lacked one element: it's the desire for unity of the state and the nation. That's simply the basic definition of nationalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Nationalism is foremost the desire to create a state for a stateless nation. I suppose those who have their own independent state, like the Dutch, don't understand that as well as their ancestors once did or like Flemings still do today. What happens after obtaining an independent state is much more diffuse. Afterwards, when the revolution is over, you get non-nationalists participating in the nationalist project of the state. For example: George Washington, a nationalist, created the American state, but Obama (not a nationalist) ran it, still using the same symbols early American nationalists relied upon. And yet he was nothing but a direct threat to the political unity of the Anglo-American state and nation.
    The Flemings are actually a good example of the point I am making. Without the Belgian state, a Flemish nation would not have existed. It's a collection of Low-German speaking people in the Belgian state that have adopted the Flemish label politically as a result of being trapped in the Belgian state. This political element of nation forming in Belgium is actually a reason why in Flanders most dialects are on the verge of extinction, while they are better preserved in the Netherlands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    After the revolution, the state is there to safeguard the existence of the nation and it remains a platform for action for the nation. The nation state is an end point in history, there's nothing that comes after it. Tribes form nations, nations create states, states defend the nation. That's not what's happening anymore in the West though, as Europeans and American elites are trying to replace actual nation-states with supranational institutes resembling he Belgian state - and Belgium is only federal in name.
    You are confusing historical realities and ideals. How can something be an end point in history, but at the same time be replaced by something else?
    Anyway, I congratulate you with having written the 'Complete History of Mankind' on such short notice.




    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Let's ask the Tirolers whether the Italian fascists had a point. Better yet, let's ask Sigurd.
    Perhaps we should ask the Sorbs whether you have a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    This Franco-Italian, Latin philosophy is not a legitimate form of nationalism to me, it's something all nationalists should detest. You can't create a new nation from scratch and while trying you would destroy the heritage of people belonging to already existing nations, terrorising their unwilling citizenry.
    Here again, it is not about either creating a nation from scratch or from an ethnicity. I haven't claimed that anywhere and I don't think for example Italian fascism is an example of that (the creation of racial laws in their colonies prove otherwise) even though perhaps some movements within fascism might go that far. As I noted before, degree is key. I credit Mussolini for recognizing this element of political will in forming the nation. Compare it to Zucht, which Spengler uses for the development of medieval nobility and Jewry. Even völkisch theorists often acknowledged this element.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    I prefer to look at ancient Greece for the original proto-nationalism(s). The American revolution predates the French revolution at any rate, and it was a genuine ethnonationalist rebellion. I appreciate original American and German nationalisms, but not the French. Romantic German nationalism belongs to the same era anyway.
    While there was ethnic consciousness among ancient Greeks, they were far removed from ethnic nationalism. The polis was the political ideal, also in philosophy.
    You seem to imply that I appreciate French nationalism. Let it be clear, that I do not embrace this position at all. Many German romantics admired the French revolution by the way. Originally German nationalism owed quite a lot to French nationalism. Historically speaking you cannot detach German nationalism from French nationalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Yet state and civic nationalisms are fake, the more centralist in nature, the faker they are.
    Is this statement also valid for nationalsocialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    The actual nationalist struggle in France is the struggle against the centralists from Paris.
    And then they will replace it with a new centralism, but on a different level. In the end, regional identities also result from political power. Catalonia fights a regionalist struggle against the Spanish state. But who is the voice for the Mozarabics that have lost their language during the reconquista?

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    Senior Member Tripredacus's Avatar
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    Patriotism is loyalty to The State.
    Nationalism is loyalty to the people.

    However, they are both generic concepts and can be practiced in many different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    And those ''Russians'' who hurrayed then Russia occupied Crimea and some of them went to say: Give us next 3 Baltic countries, Poland and Finland?
    Were those guys (who adores Russian imperialism) more patriots or nationalists? No matter what, the media calls them nationalists. And I think big mass of people thinks so too. Right or wrong.

    BTW: Is Vladimir Žirinovski more patriot or nationalist?
    Russia does not "occupy" the Crimea. It is a legitimate part of the Russian Federation. Its population determined their own future democratically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wuotans Krieger View Post
    Russia does not "occupy" the Crimea. It is a legitimate part of the Russian Federation. Its population determined their own future democratically.
    LOL. ''Sure''.

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