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Thread: The Darkest "White" Europeans

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    As I could have predicted, some of our usual pseudo-intellectuals are getting wrapped up in semantics and the minutia of language, and are steering this topic way off course.

    Well, what's the story morning glory? Who are the darkest "White" Europeans? Napletons, Calabrians, or Sicilians from Italy? Andalusian Spaniards? Southern Portuguese? Greeks? Sardinians?

    Coon makes a few vague references to Sicilians and their dark colouring, but he also mentions Calabrians in that vein a lot as well.

    Let's hear from the masses out there. And please, can we stay on topic for once! Please.

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    They thread also begs the question are "dark" Europeans White at all? I have seen several Greeks and Italians that tell me otherwise.






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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    The darkest would probably be southern Italians and Cretan Greeks.
    Incidentally, I've met both a Cretan Greek, and two southern Italians who resided in my city for some time, and froze their butts off during winter.

    btw. Ted, does it ever come across your mind that the brown-skinned "Eastern Europeans" could be Gypsies trying to pass as Slavs/Romanians/Hungarians etc?

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
    They thread also begs the question are "dark" Europeans White at all? I have seen several Greeks and Italians that tell me otherwise.
    Let me explain.

    You're an American. The whole US idea of what's white and what isn't is
    rather unapplicable on European soil.

    America and Europe are two different things, accept it, and stop trying to see Europe through typically American concepts.

    A real European has no problem with calling a Kurd, or an Arab 'white',
    but that wouldn't make that Kurd or Arab any more eligible for anything, because
    a true European knows where he belongs.

    In Europe, 'whiteness', or 'aryanhood' or any other similar concept doesn't mean a right-of-passage as it does in USA. Here it's synonymous with the term 'caucasoid', and it has no greater importance.

    The roots of all these differences you can find in the very different ethnic and cultural composition of Americans of European descent, and a very different history of USA.

    Need I remind you of Benjamin Franklin's idea of 'the white race' which rejected Scandinavians, Irish, Russians etc. as 'swarthy'. Through time, this ideal changed... as populations in USA mixed, the concept of 'White' began to encompass more than just Anglo-Saxons, it slowly accepted the previously "too swarthy" Scandinavians, Germans, Irish, Slavs, Italians... the concept changed, because it needed to fit the agenda of the melting pot.

    In Europe (w/o Britain), the allegiances were never stretched. Here, a person is one of the European ethnicities. Nothing more, nothing less.

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    When I was living in the USA I remember seeing an awful lot of Polish-Americans who could tan as dark as Italian-Americans in the summertime, even though many of the Poles had light brown hair and greenish, hazel eyes. In the winter the Poles would be much fairer in complexion, and not be dark like the Italians, but in summer they could supass them in colour.
    All the American Poles I've seen around here are light haired (usually blonde) and light eyed (blue or green), and they're never anywhere near as dark as an Italian... or at all for that matter.

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    The Portuguese and spanish are darker than the Italians, and I think also the greeks too but not by much. Greeks and Italians are more alpine and intermediate in pigmentation than the more classic west med Iberians.

    The Borreby group was called the Fehrmaners I believe, but they were not very blonde. Blondness was only great in childhood, in the latter parts of life the hair as rule was a medium brown in the great majority of the people.

    In coons races of europe, the blondest people are the 'Valle" people of central Norway, almost all were blonde in adulthood, only a few brunnets and no dark brown hair, let alone black.

    The lightest haired and eyed regions in the world are scandanavia. Norway, Sweden and Finland are the benchmark for blondness. Ireland has many pure-light eyes forms, but also more dark eyes than scandanavia, therefore stealing my vote.

    The lightest skin in my opinion are the scots, more than the irish, but just the british isles in general. Very pale complexions, even british atlantids are freakin pale . Scandanavians aren't as dark as some of the british but they don't attain the complete 'whiteness' of the british skin and instead have a pinkish hue to their skin, and can tan to a golden bronze colour in summer.

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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    As I recall, the blondest people were some Borreby types on a Baltic Island starting with the letter "F" but I forget the name.
    Faeroe Islands? Isn't it an official part of Denmark?And this would confirm the theory of which a humide climate created by the Ocean, the presence of Gulf Stream warm current and the Nordic position on lattitude generate the "blondest" people?

    I would make an observation over Sicily. Because of the Normand conquest in the area, you may see nowadays a number of blond people there, too.

    I think the answer to the question: "Where are the darkest 'white' Europeans?" is "Everywhere in Europe". The predominance of a more darker skinned people, but yet still absolutely Europeans from any other point of view is to be found in the Mediterranean areas of Europe, from Western Turkey to Central&Southern Spain and Portugal, passing by Central and Southern Greece and Central and Southern Italy.

    But it is only a predominance and it does not imply each and every person of these areas to be having a darker complexion. This also should not imply they would not be Europeans.

    Europe is formed of differences, usually of historical nature, but also fo biological one, due to the previously defined historical differences or due to climate. This is why Europe is so interesting, imho.

    Just what is "white"?
    A very good question. I think, scientificaly speaking, it is about the light reflection degree the skin color of a human produces.

    Another point in the discussion here, imho, would be the scientifical and also statistical discussion of the UV index average value in some regions and the average value of the relection degree of skin for the population in the same regions.

    This, in case the question had no covered layer and it did not mean to imply anything, but just a mere question over the average skin color of some Europeans and whether it has something to do with climate.
    Last edited by Marius; Sunday, February 20th, 2005 at 08:59 AM.

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    Post AW: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    According to Coon in his book, The Races of Europe, he claims that his research indicate that the Swedes are proportionally the blondest Europeans,
    You mean Estonians.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    A good source in this direction:

    "UV-induced DNA damage and melanin content in human skin differing in racial/ethnic origin.", Laboratory of Cell Biology, Building 37, Room 1B25, National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA. hearingv@nih.gov

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    Abstract:

    DNA damage induced by UV radiation is a critical event in skin photocarcinogenesis. However,
    the role of racial/ethnic origin in determining individual UV sensitivity remains unclear. In this
    study, we examined the relationships between melanin content and DNA damage induced by UV
    exposure in situ in normal human skin of different racial/ethnic groups, phototypes, and UV
    sensitivities. The minimal erythema dose (MED) was established for each subject exposed to
    UVA/UVB radiation, and skin was biopsied before as well as 7 min, 1 day, and 1 wk after UV
    exposure. There was great variation among individuals in the amount of DNA damage incurred
    and rates of its removal. The results show that after exposure to 1 MED of UV, the skin of
    subjects from all groups suffered significant DNA damage, and that increasing content of
    constitutive melanin inversely correlated with the amount of DNA damage. It is clear from these
    results that measured erythemal UV sensitivity of the skin (MED) is a more useful predictor of
    DNA photodamage than is racial/ethnic origin or skin phototype and that rates of DNA damage
    removal following UV radiation may be the critical determinant of the UV sensitivity (including
    predisposition to cancer) of the skin.

    Keywords: melanocytes • skin color • photocarcinogenesis • cyclobutane pyrimidine dimers
    To make it short, the UV (ultra-violet) rays are the one responsible for tanning. As higher as the UV index in an area is, at some moment, the higher is the risk to get burned.

    For example: the prevision for tomorrow in UV index, in Europe:

    At a global level:

    Now, the interesting things for our discussion are the average values on many years for UV index in Europe, but the logic is that it increases as much as you go South. Here, it comes in the discussion in the above paper. Is a higher UV index implying a modification in the DNA in order to get chromosomes which produce a higher quantity of melanin in the skin?

    Not very clear since there are exceptions:

    - The Inuit (Eskimo) have brown skin, yet live where there is not much sun. Presumably they all have a genetic makeup, which would not be able to produce lighter skin;
    - native South Americans living on the Equator do not have black skin as Africans living on the Equator, even if they are darker.

    So, in order to find out the answer to the question of darkest Europeans, whose absolute answer I do not know, I think a better question should be: "Which are the Europeans whose DNA is more susceptible to produce more important quantities of melanin, since exceptions may be provided to the climate adaptation ?".

    Other theories are presented if one scrolls down this page at "similar threads".

    The thickening of the skin does not provide the color of the skin, imo. So, not all simple questions have simple answers.
    Last edited by Marius; Sunday, February 20th, 2005 at 10:50 AM.

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    Post Re: The Darkest "White" Europeans

    Sardinians are the darkest among italians, followed by Calabrians and Sicilians.
    Or, better, Sardinians are the ones with a minor percentage of hair and eye blondism, which does not necessarily mean they are the darkest in skin tone.

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