View Poll Results: Dos honor have a reasonable, valid basis?

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  • Yes. The feeling of exclusivity and posession is necessary for the homan mind somehow.

    58 93.55%
  • No. It is largely the product of rules of a certain society, obsession and prejudice. It is dispensable and counterproductive.

    4 6.45%
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Thread: History and Decline of Honour

  1. #41
    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Poll: does honor have a reasonable, valid basis

    Quote Originally Posted by raboy View Post
    what basis do you mean?im talking about honor even without a society and norms. do you believe there is a psychological mechanism that makes it necessary?
    It has nothing to do with one's mental composition. Do you agree that man requires - insofar as he can obtain them - facts in order to live? For example: you are being charged at by a pack of wolves, and you have a shotgun in your hands. Will you mentally remain skeptical about the existence of the shotgun, or have total faith that the shotgun and the shells are real and will serve the purpose of killing the animals before they kill you? A piece of knowledge you would stake your life upon were you in the right conditions is what I call a fact. It is bluntly obvious that ethics is a practical science for regulating behaviour within and between societies. Therefore I state that a man of honour is a man who will state nothing but facts which others may then use - this is necessary for the functioning of any society, as the enhancement of the common good necessarily is advantageous for the advancement of the self. To put in a shorter way: a man's word is his bond.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

  2. #42
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    Re: Poll: does honor have a reasonable, valid basis

    I voted yes.

    Duelling has resulted in loss of precious blood, and while its important to consider on honour being taken far, I feel its equally important to reflect on honour being taken far enough?

    For instance, I look at the Japanese committing Seppuku, and so nevermind duelling another person, but do we have what it takes to chop parts of ourselves in honour-sacrifice?

    Until the moment comes, I do not know and I am not sure if I/this age could live upto such acts, though I'd like to think I/we could.

    Does honour really manifest in any painful ways these days? Nietzsche said the fear of pain and suffering has come to characterize modernism. (Not that I am necessarily equating honour with pain, but where is the strong feeling of love and respect that one would cut off his finger for his mentor, say?)

    I think we may have become specialists in enduring any amount of mental pain, but on the physical level?

    Are razor-bladers who cut themselves strong or weak in that sense, from this context of enduring pain on physical level?

  3. #43
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: Poll: does honor have a reasonable, valid basis

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrian View Post
    I feel its equally important to reflect on honour being taken far enough?
    For instance, I look at the Japanese committing Seppuku, and so nevermind duelling another person, but do we have what it takes to chop parts of ourselves in honour-sacrifice?
    Does honour really manifest in any painful ways these days? Nietzsche said the fear of pain and suffering has come to characterize modernism. (Not that I am necessarily equating honour with pain, but where is the strong feeling of love and respect that one would cut off his finger for his mentor, say?)
    I think we may have become specialists in enduring any amount of mental pain, but on the physical level?
    Are razor-bladers who cut themselves strong or weak in that sense, from this context of enduring pain on physical level?
    No - because Honour is not motivated by pain but by shame.

    You will notice that Honour is only held in the highest esteem in 'Shame Cultures'.

    In such cultures a man would rather die than be brought to Shame.

    We moved from a Shame Culture to a Sin Culture.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  4. #44
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    Re: Poll: does honor have a reasonable, valid basis

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    No - because Honour is not motivated by pain but by shame.

    You will notice that Honour is only held in the highest esteem in 'Shame Cultures'.

    In such cultures a man would rather die than be brought to Shame.

    We moved from a Shame Culture to a Sin Culture.
    Yes, and that I agree with.

    I am asking, to use your line, motivated by shame, does this time still have the strength to keep honour if those codes [personal or otherwise], not demanded, but involved a degree of physical pain on one's own self.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: Poll: does honor have a reasonable, valid basis

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrian View Post
    Yes, and that I agree with.I am asking, to use your line, motivated by shame, does this time still have the strength to keep honour if those codes [personal or otherwise], not demanded, but involved a degree of physical pain on one's own self.
    I think the main difference is that in a Shame Culture the 'pain' of Shame, if you like, is public.

    Whereas in a Sin Culture the 'pain' of sin is private [in a limited sense sinfulness could be seen as a sort of private shame before God, but this is not sufficiently public to give it the necessary gravitas for a Shame Culture which needn't believe in God but can still be effective as a Shame Culture].

    The Sin Culture depends on a strong sense of conscience.
    However, it is possible for a man who has the burden of sin on his conscience to carry on his daily life without others knowing.
    It trains you to be sneaky and hypocritical - something very difficult to pull off in a Shame Culture.

    However, the concept of conscience is breaking down as fewer and fewer believe that a God can see into their souls.

    Of course this all rests on the idea that a God who is completely perfect and judging actually exists.

    In a Shame culture, there is less of a metaphysical problem; the family inculcates into children that bringing Shame on the family will result in complete ostracisation and worse.
    In a Shame culture, all institutions work on that basis, so that a family will be punished by its neighbours for having a 'black sheep' and so on - seemingly 'cruel' by modern standards in the West.

    This is all very practical and public, as I said.

    Of course, in such a culture there are no 'safety nets'; an outcast recieves no help at all, no 'welfare'; also he has no 'rights'.
    Also such cultures must be small in size, where all are known to each other to a degree.

    Attempts to use 'shame' as a weapon against young thugs in the West have not been too successful; 1, because the thugs have no inherent sense of 'shame' (!), and 2, because those thugs tend to wear their outcast state as a badge of [perverse] 'honour'.

    This is part of our problem; the death of God has not only brought about the decline in a sense of sin, but also the equality mad human rights fanaticism of modern 'democracy' has virtually eliminated Shame.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  6. #46
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    Sv: Honor: A History/ Does 'Honor' have a Reasonable Basis?

    Yes, I do indeed believe that honour has a reasonable basis. This in the sense that the concept of honour stands in full accordance with and constitutes an integral part of the natural condition of man. Rather than being a thought or idea imposed from without, the origin of the honour-concept is to be sought in the natural disposition of man, regardless of to what extent he is capable of actualizing it in himself.

    From the above also follows that honour is to be thought of as what constitutes the most purely and truly human aspect in the nature of man, in that it seeks to overcome the animal condition. In rightly exercising it man removes himself from and rises above all that is common, ignoble and lowly, all that proceeds from wordly and sentimental concerns for well-being and practicality. In this sense there is also a spiritual dimension to the concept of honour, beyond that of mere ethics. It epitomizes a specifically aristocratic and warrior type of spirituality, that throughout history perhaps has found its prime expression in what has come to be known as 'the Age of Chivalry' of Medieval times.

    As for the practical application of the concept of honour, I do agree to that there can, and sometimes should, be a limit to how far the upholding of honour is to be taken, but one should also keep in mind that honour really has nothing to do with what is 'useful' or 'productive'. These are base and simple concerns when compared to that of honour, which is of a far higher nature. Of course honour can be useful and have practically beneficial effects, but honour, in essence, is not guided by or determined by usefulness, or any other wordly utilitarian concerns for that matter.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Kurt Steiner's Avatar
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    Honor Not the Cowards and Submitters

    In a war against savage and bestial opponents, honor is insane. Why?
    Because the first Law of Honor is to save your people. If you practice some pseudo-honor that lets enemy subversion, terror and mass murderers run free, then you are dishonoring the first and primary law , survival of the tribe.
    Consider Germany in WW2. There is no doubt that, as in WW1 (when Germans were accused of eating babies instead of sauerkraut) WW2 Germany was falsely accused of millions of lying pages of dishonarable crimes. Then when the Soviets, Czechs, French, Yugoslavs, Brits, Americans, Dutch, Norwegians and whoever ...mass-murdered, raped, tortured and burned alive (While robbing the nation of its industry, scientific discoveries, best minds and bravest, strongest survivors) vulnerable and disarmed men, women children, wounded and the elderly, they were given a phoney excuse.
    "The Germanskis did it to us, now we get revenge. " Although there is strong evidence that among the "allies" murder and torture was a fixture of their gangsterism before Germany even had a chance to retaliate.

    For those who really believe the 80 years of hate-German propaganda and the "Hitler-is-Demon" and Stalin-is Good" bullcrap, I can overwhelm you with contra evidence.

    Shouldn't you, personally, look for the truth too?

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    There might be a lack of honour in contemporary society, but I aim to act in an honorable fashion none the less. Maybe it should go without saying one, as somebody who supports the idea of honour as a virtue, should be true to your ideals in a world without the same. This is however not always the case. We live in the age of the excuse. People find every excuse to be sloppy and without obligations.

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    Senior Member Cuchullain's Avatar
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    Having grown up in a Catholic society I can identity with the idea of inner shame and guilt. These emotional reactions are built into me now I am afraid but I feel if I can identify these reactions then I can deal with them in a more rational way.

    I do see a difference between the inner and outer shame. If I feel that if I do something which dishonours an other and this makes me feel guilty then it is not because I am ashamed as such. I feel that I have acted in a way that has opposed my own moral values therefore it is morally necessary for me to rectify it.

    I will not be commuting suicide or involving myself in self flagellation but I will be honourable enough to see my mistake and act accordingly to resolve the matter.
    I gcás na fola agus ithir na hÉireann

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    - What is your personal code of honour (if any)?

    - Why is honour as a concept dying in modern society?

    - Is this a good or bad thing?

    - What is honour? The texts in the thread only deal with the expressions of honour, but what is it?


    Honor is a sense of personal, internal moral integrity, whatever those internalized values may be. It means you stand up for what you believe in, even if you are amongst enemies or strangers, you keep your own value system and defend it to varying degrees. It means morals that you hold dear that you would fight for. That means different things to different people in different cultures. Usually, though, some common themes like honesty, self-defense, defense of one's people, and loyalty are there.

    Honor can also simply refer to how your reputation reflects on "your people" i.e. the reason why a woman's honor was once considered sexual chastity in the past is because this would reputably reflect on her family's morality, and her own loyalty to her husband (or betrothed).

    The Southern concept of honor - the one I'm most familiar with having grown up in the American South - is that you do not sit by and watch certain things go on, like seeing someone hit a lady or be rude to your mother or disrespect your family or even trespass on your property.

    I think honor still does matter to some Southerners in the reputation sense, as well, and that is why particularly in the deep South you'll see a tendency for people to practice "good manners" and to be friendly to their neighbors, and also generous with things like a glass of tea or dinner or helping a community member on the side of the road, because THESE ARE JUST THINGS THAT DECENT PEOPLE DO.

    In some cases Southern honor really is about integrity to be kind and helpful, in other cases it can be a pure show of lies that merely serves as a veneer to keep one's "reputation" in tact. It depends on the person and the situation.

    Personally, I believe in honor in both senses, but I find that reputation honor in particular can be taken too far, when it becomes a dishonest show instead of genuine values. When I was younger it really bothered me for people to put on this kind of "show" if it seemed false. I understand why people do it more now that I'm older, but I'm still partial to inner integrity honor more so than reputation honor.

    I may care more about honor because of my Southern up-bringing, I don't know, because I can be vengeful or want to "set things to rights" and I do believe there are things that all decent people should do...but I don't necessarily advocate violence, and I really am annoyed by people who put on shows of having this fake kind of honor just for the sake of what other people think of them, and I can sometimes even embarrass people who put too much stock in that sort of "honor."

    I don't understand the Japanese sense of honor of like, dying rather than losing, but as I say, honor varies from culture to culture, and it also may be different for men than women on some primal level, that maybe men are more likely to find honor in war or battle, because I certainly don't comprehend dying just so I could win.


    One extreme example of "reputation" honor that bothers me are the kinds of "honor killings" that can take place in some Middle Eastern Muslim countries where they'd rather murder a female family member than risk their family's name in the community. That kind of "honor" makes me sick. It's the "false show of pretense" honor that annoys me even on a less deadly level in some other cultures.

    Honor is dying out in society, in terms of personal inner integrity, because people are becoming so "tolerant" and "liberal" that it can border on amoral stupidity, in my opinion.

    I don't even identify as a conservative, but I can identify an extreme form of liberalism where essentially nothing is sacred, everything is permissible and all value systems are viewed as being equal, and I think this can lead to a decline in personally integrous honor, the sort of honor where you fight for your own internal, personal morals.

    It also may happen in larger populations or urban areas that people have no sense of honor to themselves or others, because people are treated as numbers rather than as human beings, so a general lack of respect for both self and others causes people to be without honor, in a sad way.

    On the other hand, I think we can do without the extreme forms of honor that lead to things like duals at dawn and "honor killings."

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