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Thread: Scythian - Saxon/Jute connection?

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Tyr was certainly associated with the short one-edged sword, so I dont see why Seaxnot cant be a name for the same figure.
    Yes, absolutely. As you might see in my sigfile, I myself list Seaxnot and Tiw together, as i do lean toward the two being the same.
    But then again, there is absolutely nothing to say that Seaxnot wasn't a god unique to the Saxons, and to more than one Anglo-Saxon scholar this is their preferred opinion.

    In short, I feel that that in some way, Scythian culture came to bear influence upon some German tribes, but that that influence was a cultural transfer (like English in Africa today) and not a genetic one. The Angles don't seem to have been affected, not any other german tribe close by from what I can tell. Just the Saxons and perhaps the Jutes...

    The zoomorphic-knotwork art alone is enough to raise eyebrows.

    far ranging fast moving nomads on horseback might have wriggled into some very strange spots in those unrecorded days. If there was no Scythian influence upon the Saxons and Jutes, then the obvious scythian elements in the saxon name, artwork and horse-symbolism are amazing co-incidences on a monumental scale.

    I would dearly like to see any DNA studies, and to find out more about the Sakas religion, and whether they themselves identified themselves with a sword or knife.

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    Also interesting to note that the Gaels considered themselves to have been a Celtic/Scythian people

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Lang
    In short, I feel that that in some way, Scythian culture came to bear influence upon some German tribes, but that that influence was a cultural transfer (like English in Africa today) and not a genetic one. The Angles don't seem to have been affected, not any other german tribe close by from what I can tell. Just the Saxons and perhaps the Jutes...
    I agree that there were borrowings, however cultural continuity between the steppe and the forest happened before the Saxons are identifiable and a lot of Celtic style has a Scythian look for this reason.

    There was ethnic continuity between Indo-Iranians and their forest neighbours and the East Slavs are a mixture of a forest people and steppe people. The Low Germanic area is geographically far more distant to the steppe, so I suspect the similarities are probably through more indirect borrowings and distantly shared origins.

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    I agree that there were borrowings, however cultural continuity between the steppe and the forest happened before the Saxons are identifiable and a lot of Celtic style has a Scythian look for this reason.
    I recall reading that the Celts actually gleaned the knotwork style from the Anglo-Saxons (not blowing their trumpet at all, since they themselves purloined it from our fine Scythian friends) but the Celts were not to big on the zoomorphic part, focusing more on abstract knotted patterns.
    There was ethnic continuity between Indo-Iranians and their forest neighbours and the East Slavs are a mixture of a forest people and steppe people. The Low Germanic area is geographically far more distant to the steppe, so I suspect the similarities are probably through more indirect borrowings and distantly shared origins.
    This is the only genetic data I can dredge up ATM...
    About 50% of Slavs and Balts,and about 30% of Central Europeans share the same Y chromosome haplogroup (R1a) with 50% of the people of the Indus Valley. This Y-chromosome mutation is believed to have originated in people of the kurgan-building culture of traditional Scythia, the Eurasian steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas. This lineage is currently found in central and western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of Eastern Europe.
    Seems Germans do not share this Y-chromosome mutation, given their absence in the list above....

    Yet another point against the idea that any significant body of Scythians moved off the steppe and into the forests of NW germany.

    From what I can see the Scythians were both asiatic in ethnicity, but also caucasian as well, blond mummies have been dug up in ukraine (eg: the ice maiden mummy) I can only assume that the dominant Scythian culture supplanted whatever culture it was that the indigenous peoples of the Ukraine had.


    Asiatic scythianesque Tartar


    They look very caucasian in the gold motif above...


    another beautiful gold piece. the men look iranian/afghani..

    Scythian gold artwork slide collection
    http://www.pitt.edu/~haskins/

    <shrugs> history certainly is stranger than fiction sometimes....
    Last edited by Vanir; Wednesday, December 29th, 2004 at 03:33 PM. Reason: added a noice pic

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Lang
    From what I can see the Scythians were both asiatic in ethnicity, but also caucasian as well, blond mummies have been dug up in ukraine (eg: the ice maiden mummy) I can only assume that the dominant Scythian culture supplanted whatever culture it was that the indigenous peoples of the Ukraine had.
    Caucasians formrely extended further to the east in the Bronze Age. I wouldnt say this makes Scythians culturally Asiatic, though.

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    Post Re: Scythian ~ Saxon/Jute connection?

    I'm just trying to deal with this story as open mindedly as possible (being Devil's advocate in a way if you like).

    There are people who would ignore data and play it down feeling Scythian influence in Germany would make them "less" German, people (like the Nazis) who played it up feeling it made them "more" aryan, and then again there are people who would over-emphasize it in effort to tone down nordic nationalism (like half-baked journalists and Arts students) none of whom are likely to honestly examine all facts for their own sake. Which is why I made this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    "Saxon" is a contraction of Saxe-man. The "man" being the same word as the English mean with referring to an individual as "one". So, Saxon is a man or a person using a Saxe---no mystery at all. The saxe is a three foot backed blade (like a meat cleaver) used to slice through chain mail. It was not primarily a stabbing weapon.
    Just going off on a tangent here (as this topic interests me) Seaxes were carried by all freemen, and were mostly small, all-purpose utility knives. The bigger war seaxes, or langseaxes, were IMHO primarily used for stabbing, or hacking at the unarmoured. In the name of science I have worn mail armour (with padding) and let my friends hack at me with a machete, and it did nothing. But I can tell you there is NO way I'd let them come near me with a sharp knife, spear or bow&arrow and give them open slather. Mail is hopeless at turning stabbing blows. The rings have to be REALLY strongly welded or riveted. And even then, I would not trust riveted links personally, the rivets can pop, and then you're dead. When we put the mail shirt on a mannenquin, all of us could stab through it with a forceful blow (that would be 15 years ago now, haha)
    something like this would be awesome for chopping, given the shape and weight distribution
    but the design of a seax would lend its strength in stabbing straight into the vitals, that long thin point getting between ribs with ease <shudder>
    Here's a beautiful shortish seax..

    plus the large pic of the vicious looking langseax I posted further back in this thread.
    Regia Anglorum have a really good page on Seaxes..
    http://www.regia.org/seax.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Regia Anglorum
    The langseax, a tool much more suited for fighting with, usually ended in a deadly needle point, therefore a thrust could have had much the same effect as a spear. A slashing blow to an armoured man would do little visible damage directly through mail, certainly breaking bones and causing heavy bruising; but brought down on an unarmoured limb or neck would prove to be fatal. The simple rule of 'the bigger the weapon, the greater the damage' reflects how dangerous Scramaseaxes could be.
    Whoever wrote the story connecting the Scythians to the Saxons probably also wrote the story connecting Virgils story of Trojan survival to the Swedes. It makes just about as much sense.
    You'll get no argument from me there!

    On no level does it make any sense, historical, cultural, or on the level of physical anthropology.
    The only clear influence that I can't deny my eyes see is the zoomorphic-knotwork artstyle.
    The similarity in the names Sakas and Saxon is interesting circumstantially when considering it along with the knotwork art and Horse symbolism, but on their own are reasonably & entirely explicable in a purely Teuronic way (ala seax = saxon) *IF* the Sakas were shown to idenfify themselves with a knife or sword, then I'd take another look, but since that is not likely to ever happen. Plonk.

    Scythians were shorter, smaller people than the Anglo-Saxons. The lived centuries before the Anglo-Saxons, they were a steppe-horse culture. If there are any links of genetic markers they are probably just general links which are found between the Scythians and many other peoples living in Northern Europe.
    No argument from me. On the contrary I agree.

    Just giving this story a chance under the naked light of day to prosper and grow, or wither away, on its own merits, so I never have to hear someone squawking at me "You aren't Germanic! You're a Saxon and thus asiatic! Germans don't exist!"

    I can see how some cultural influence might have occurred, as such transmissions of ideas have happened many times in history, but that's about all.
    Last edited by Vanir; Thursday, December 30th, 2004 at 02:30 PM.

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    The theory is proven by genetics. Nordic, Atlantic and Baltic peoples together are the result of Bronze Age Scythians (what are otherwise called Aryans) having colonised by horse and chariot what was once a Megalithic Stone Age, Mediterranean Europe. Our understanding of demographics is more from Iron Age conditions, that may appear stable, but so much as changed since those days as well.

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