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Thread: Slavic Ancestry in Germany, Germans With Slavic Surnames, etc.

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    Slavic Ancestry in Germany, Germans With Slavic Surnames, etc.

    Y-STR haplotypes from East Germany – differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and
    Slavic origin?


    Despite its name, which seems to imply an utterly Germanic origin, Germany has always been a gateway for migration. This includes the arrival of eastern Germanic tribes and Slavs, driven by the pressure of the Huns, which eventually led to the downfall of the Roman empire. As a consequence of these population movements, the area which today forms East Germany was inhabited by Slavic people in the early middle ages. Whilst most Slavic tribes (like the Prussians) completely abandoned their language during the following centuries and turned “typically German”, the Sorb minority in the Lausitz region maintained much of its cultural identity and today represents the only people speaking a Slavic language in Germany. What has been left from the Slavic languages in most parts of East Germany, however, are the names of cities and some family names. In addition, parts of East Germany such as the South of Saxony-Anhalt are traditional mining and industrial areas which experienced significant migration of Slavic workers during the industrial revolution. Both waves of Slavic migration could have had impact on the composition of the local population and are documented by a high percentage of surnames with Slavic origin. The goal of the present study was to investigate whether Y-chromosome haplotype analysis is capable to distinguish groups with surnames of different origin.

    To this end, DNA samples were obtained from 400 males born in the south of Saxony-Anhalt. Samples were divided into three groups namely those with a Germanic surname, those with a Slavic surname and those with mixed origin of the surnames. The minimal Y-STR haplotype of these two groups was analysed by AMOVA. A highly significant difference (p < 0.001,FST = 0.0309) between the Germanic and the Slavic groups was observed. When comparing this to other populations using published data, this difference is similar to that between European populations of large geographical and linguistical differences (like e.g. between Cologne and Budapest). On the other hand, the group with surnames of the mixed origin were indistinguishable from the Germanic group (FST = 0.0008). Our results reflect that the Y chromosomal lineages of Germans born in southern Saxony-Anhalt differ depending on the ethnic and linguistic origin of their surname.

    Corresponding author: Uta-Dorothee Immel, Institut für Rechtsmedizin, Martin-Luther Universität Halle-Wittenberg, Franzosenweg 1, 06112 Halle/Saale, Email: uta.immel@medizin.uni-halle.de


    Source: http://www.yhrd.org/rcms/element/2249.pdf

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    Post Re: East Germany –differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and Slavic origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav
    Y-STR haplotypes from East Germany – differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and
    Slavic origin?

    UD Immel 1, M Krawczak 2, H Rodig 3, M Kleiber 1, M Klintschar 1
    1 Institut für Rechtsmedizin, Martin-Luther Universität Halle-Wittenberg, Franzosenweg 1, 06112 Halle, Germany
    2 Institut für Medizinische Informatik uand Statistik, Christian-Albrechts- UniversityUniversität, Kiel, Germany
    Brunswiker Strasse 10, 24105 Kiel
    3 Biotype AG, Dresden, Germany

    Too bad it's just an abstract...
    Despite its name, which seems to imply an utterly Germanic origin, Germany has always been a gateway for migration. This includes the arrival of eastern Germanic tribes and Slavs, driven by the pressure of the Huns, which eventually led to the downfall of the Roman empire.
    ???This is an incredibly stupid and incoherent statement.
    As a consequence of these population movements, the area which today forms East Germany
    Certainly, East Germany extends to the Oder. between the Oder and the Memel it's Prussia. Saxons are quite happy to renounce their conquests but we will never renounce our homelands
    was inhabited by Slavic people in the early middle ages. Whilst most Slavic tribes (like the Prussians)
    Idiots. Not a bit of truth
    completely abandoned their language during the following centuries and turned “typically German”,
    You can't turn 'typically German' genetically.
    the Sorb minority in the Lausitz region maintained much of its cultural identity and today represents the only people speaking a Slavic language in Germany. What has been left from the Slavic languages in most parts of East Germany, however, are the names of cities and some family names. In addition, parts of East Germany such as the South of Saxony-Anhalt are traditional mining and industrial areas which experienced significant migration of Slavic workers during the industrial revolution. Both waves of Slavic migration could have had impact on the composition of the local population and are documented by a high percentage of surnames with Slavic origin. The goal of the present study was to investigate whether Y-chromosome haplotype analysis is capable to distinguish groups with surnames of different origin. To this end, DNA samples were obtained from 400 males born in the south of Saxony-Anhalt. Samples were divided into three groups namely those with a Germanic surname, those with a Slavic surname and those with mixed origin of the surnames. The minimal Y-STR haplotype of these two groups was analysed by AMOVA. A highly significant difference (p < 0.001,FST = 0.0309) between the Germanic and the Slavic groups was observed. When comparing this to other populations using published data, this difference is similar to that between European populations of large geographical and linguistical differences (like e.g. between Cologne and Budapest). On the other hand, the group with surnames of the mixed origin were indistinguishable from the Germanic group (FST = 0.0008). Our results reflect that the Y chromosomal lineages of Germans born in southern Saxony-Anhalt differ depending on the ethnic and linguistic origin of their surname.
    Corresponding author:
    Uta-Dorothee Immel, Institut für Rechtsmedizin, Martin-Luther Universität Halle-Wittenberg, Franzosenweg 1, 06112
    Halle/Saale, Email: uta.immel@medizin.uni-halle.de

    http://www.yhrd.org/rcms/element/2249.pdf
    so who are they talking about? Sorbs? Polish immigrants in the 19th century? it seems the latter. If so it seems like an incredibly stupid study: how on earth would migrant Poles change into Germans just by living in Germany? This is like testing Turks in Berlin in 150 years and coming to the astonishing conclusion that they are, still, Turks.
    Last edited by WestPrussian; Sunday, December 12th, 2004 at 02:10 AM.

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    Hmmm...

    How about people who've Germanized their surnames? That used to be very common; and is still done. Nietzsche claimed to be a descendant of Polish Protestant nobility: the Nietzkys.

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    Post Re: East Germany –differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and Slavic origin?

    I think the methodology has something to do with the surprising results. They were using Y chromosome for study. This means it is an all male thing. The study would indicate to me that the mixed group was made up of German fathers and Slavic mothers. Also, Germany extended well East of the Oder in modern times. Some of those former Sileslian Germans could have picked up Slavic genes over the years.

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    What does this study proof? That the descendants of Polish immigrants during the industrial revolution differ genetically from the natives?
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


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    What are "Slavs"? Another wishy-washy definition which explains nothing.

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    Eikþyrnir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Brandt
    What are "Slavs"? Another wishy-washy definition which explains nothing.
    It is unfortunate that people use Slavs as a racial group when it is clearly a cultural/linguistic group within the indoeuropean family. This myth of slavic race is perpetuated by Panslavs and other mislead folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eikþyrnir
    It is unfortunate that people use Slavs as a racial group when it is clearly a cultural/linguistic group within the indoeuropean family. This myth of slavic race is perpetuated by Panslavs and other mislead folks.
    Exactly! It is a definition which was invented in the early 19th century. They use this term to claim germanic land, by declaring it populated by "slavs". they never are able to explain what a slav is, but they know for sure that in central Germany and Austria "Slavs" settled". Ask them "How do you know? What evidence do you have?" and they will answer you "From the Names". :
    They will then start playing around with names, drawing the most crazy conclusions. It's like babby-babbling - they chew on a name of a city so long, untill it finaly sounds "slavic". "Brandenburg" and "Graz" are originaly "Slavic" just as much as Bautzen. Any word with a "z" in it, has to be "slavic". Don't ask me why, because I am incapable of explaning the Fantasys of lunatics.
    All you have to do is check the Avatar of this "Slav" - "Karentanija" (Kärnten). Deluded Lunatics with dreams of grandeure, holding claims on our land.

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    Post Re: East Germany –differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and Slavic origin?

    Sounds like some victims of the Pisa-study are responsible for this abstract:


    Apart from the arrival of Slavic tribes and recent gene flow their is no historical
    record (which one?) of major change in Germany´s population.

    It´s very likely that the eastern Germanic tribes had a genetic composition
    similar to their west-Germanic cousins.

    Slavic settlement didn´t take place in the whole of East Germany (Middle
    Germany) but only up to the Saale and was only 200 years after the downfall
    of the Roman empire.

    The original Prussians were Baltic not Slavic.
    _____________

    Concerning the results of the study: What else could have been awaited?
    People with a Polish surname are y-chromosome-wise of Polish ancestry.
    More interesting would be a deeper look into the gene structure of those
    with a German surname in order to quantify the Slavic contribution to the
    gene pool of the Neusiedelland before 19th century industrialization.

    The mixed surnames are an all paternal item, too. Surnames in Germany were
    first introduced in the Rhine towns in the 12th century. Most regions use
    surnames since the early modern age. Especially, in more backward rural areas
    and northern Germany they appear relatively late, so the German east
    colonization and Germanization of Slavic tribes predates the appearance of
    surnames in the concerned regions, with a few exceptions like the Wends or
    Sorbs.

    However, thanks for this peace of information, Triglav.
    Last edited by beowulf_; Sunday, December 12th, 2004 at 04:40 PM.

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    Post AW: Re: East Germany –differences between carriers of surnames of Germanic and Slavic

    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf
    Especially, in more backward rural areas
    and northern Germany they appear relatively late, so the German east
    colonization and Germanization of Slavic tribes predates the appearance of
    surnames in the concerned regions, with a few exceptions like the Wends or
    Sorbs.
    That´s correct.

    However, thanks for this peace of information, Triglav.
    You´re most welcome.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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