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Thread: Physical Anthropology and Lineages (Harpending's Theory)

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    Physical Anthropology and Lineages (Harpending's Theory)

    With a respectful Chinese member, I argued Harpending's point that parental lineages were of limited usefulness in physical anthropology, because natural or selection factors could influence phenotype, independent of the genetic flow which introduces lineages.

    "The emerging picture from new and plentiful data about neutral markers is one of a smooth relationship between geographic and genetic distances with some perturbations due to recent history and to language. These findings suggest that there has been a lot of gene flow between neighbors and that isolation by distance, rather than history, dominates the distribution of neutral genes in human populations. We believe it is time to extend our domain of inquiry to marker systems where history is better preserved. In their pioneering study of human race differences, Nei and Roychoudhury hint at a new direction. They say that their finding of rather small race differences “does not apply to those genes which control morphological characters such as pigmentation and facial structure.” Darwin (1871) thought that our race differences were driven by sexual selection, a view defended by Diamond (1992) who shows that environmental selection accounts of race differences in skin color and other traits do not bear close scrutiny. If skin color were a response to climate, Tasmanians should have turned white. If this view of differences in appearance is correct, even in part, then physical appearance, like language, could carry a signature of history much deeper than the signature in neutral genes. When gene flow occurs between populations gene frequencies blend in a linear way, so that over time differences between the populations are erased as history yields to local migration-drift equilibrium. But both language and sexually selected appearance may respond very differently to contact and admixture. We think it is time for biological anthropology to turn its attention again to language and to external appearance, but we realize that both these topics are, putting it mildly, unfashionable."

    Jolly refers to this as the difference between the phenostructure, or the expression of characters, and zygostructure, the patterns of genetic admixture which are traced by parental markers.

    "These essential facts of nature fall quite straightforwardly into two conceptually distinct categories: information about interbreeding (“zygostructure”), and information about the distribution of heritable characters, including genes (“phenostructure”). The two are functionally intertwined, in that present phenostructure is the product of past zygostructure (and therefore can be used to reconstruct it), and present zygostructure determines future phenostructure (which it can therefore predict)."

    Leonard, Wayne, Wheeler, Valadez, Guillen and Vila found that there was a genetic replacement of domesticated American canines by European dogs though the American dogs locally modified the phenotype of the dogs which immigrated into America.

    They identified a group called Clade A in dogs from three archological sites in Mexico and two in South America, which they found not to have survived into their sample of modern dog breeds. However the phenotype of a Mexican breed, the Mexican hairless dog, is that of an indigenous Mexican dog.

    "Six of 12 ancient Latin American haplotypes are grouped in clade a and include sequences found in dog remains from Bolivia, Peru, and Mexico. No sequences from clade a have been found in samples from over 350 modern dogs. The upper bound of a 95% confidence limit for the frequency that sequences from clade a could have in this modern sample and be missed (an observed frequency of zero) is 1.0%. Consequently, the absence of clade a sequences from modern dogs suggests an extensive replacement of native American dogs by those introduced by Europeans. These lineages could be surviving in some unsurveyed modern Native American breeds or local dog populations. However, genetic analysis of a diverse sample of 19 Mexican hairless dogs (xoloitzcunitle), a distinct ancient breed that has been present in Mexico for over 2000 years, only revealed mtDNA sequences previously observed in dogs of Eurasian origin."
    Last edited by morfrain_encilgar; Wednesday, December 22nd, 2004 at 11:12 AM.

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    With a respectful Chinese member, I argued Harpending's point that parental lineages were of limited usefulness in physical anthropology, because natural or selection factors could influence phenotype, independent of the genetic flow which introduces lineages.

    "The emerging picture from new and plentiful data about neutral markers is one of a smooth relationship between geographic and genetic distances with some perturbations due to recent history and to language. These findings suggest that there has been a lot of gene flow between neighbors and that isolation by distance, rather than history, dominates the distribution of neutral genes in human populations. We believe it is time to extend our domain of inquiry to marker systems where history is better preserved. In their pioneering study of human race differences, Nei and Roychoudhury hint at a new direction. They say that their finding of rather small race differences “does not apply to those genes which control morphological characters such as pigmentation and facial structure.” Darwin (1871) thought that our race differences were driven by sexual selection, a view defended by Diamond (1992) who shows that environmental selection accounts of race differences in skin color and other traits do not bear close scrutiny. If skin color were a response to climate, Tasmanians should have turned white. If this view of differences in appearance is correct, even in part, then physical appearance, like language, could carry a signature of history much deeper than the signature in neutral genes. When gene flow occurs between populations gene frequencies blend in a linear way, so that over time differences between the populations are erased as history yields to local migration-drift equilibrium. But both language and sexually selected appearance may respond very differently to contact and admixture. We think it is time for biological anthropology to turn its attention again to language and to external appearance, but we realize that both these topics are, putting it mildly, unfashionable."

    Jolly refers to this as the difference between the phenostructure, or the expression of characters, and zygostructure, the patterns of genetic admixture which are traced by parental markers.

    "These essential facts of nature fall quite straightforwardly into two conceptually distinct categories: information about interbreeding (“zygostructure”), and information about the distribution of heritable characters, including genes (“phenostructure”). The two are functionally intertwined, in that present phenostructure is the product of past zygostructure (and therefore can be used to reconstruct it), and present zygostructure determines future phenostructure (which it can therefore predict)."

    Leonard, Wayne, Wheeler, Valadez, Guillen and Vila found that there was a genetic replacement of domesticated American canines by European dogs though the American dogs locally modified the phenotype of the dogs which immigrated into America.

    They identified a group called Clade A in dogs from three archological sites in Mexico and two in South America, which they found not to have survived into their sample of modern dog breeds. However the phenotype of a Mexican breed, the Mexican hairless dog, is that of an indigenous Mexican dog.

    "Six of 12 ancient Latin American haplotypes are grouped in clade a and include sequences found in dog remains from Bolivia, Peru, and Mexico. No sequences from clade a have been found in samples from over 350 modern dogs. The upper bound of a 95% confidence limit for the frequency that sequences from clade a could have in this modern sample and be missed (an observed frequency of zero) is 1.0%. Consequently, the absence of clade a sequences from modern dogs suggests an extensive replacement of native American dogs by those introduced by Europeans. These lineages could be surviving in some unsurveyed modern Native American breeds or local dog populations. However, genetic analysis of a diverse sample of 19 Mexican hairless dogs (xoloitzcunitle), a distinct ancient breed that has been present in Mexico for over 2000 years, only revealed mtDNA sequences previously observed in dogs of Eurasian origin."
    I never said lineages were directly related to "races".. And neutral markers are not Y-chromosomes or mtDNA, I keep telling you that. What's your point? Everything you argue from is out of this desire to not have Cro-Magnons be predecessor to any other living group besides some Caucasians. That's your agenda, but as I said, I was here to discuss the pure anthro of it all.. If you were not prepared to do that, then that's your problem.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Saturday, December 25th, 2004 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Removal of paranoic bleatings

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Look, you wanna base it on "bones"? Fine. Let's base it on craniometry. In that case the North American Amerind is more even Mongoloid than a Chinese, down to the teeth and the trademark arched and forwarded cheek bones:"the anterolateral surface of the frontal processes of the
    malars are rotated forwards and the inferior half of the external surface
    of the malars tend to be orientated upwards".
    Yeah, the flesh can be very elastic. The skull is almost identical to Asians and their teech are even more Sinodont than Chinese.
    This man below doesn't have the epicanthic fold or fat around his eyes and all over his face, but once you add the fat/Asian flesh to his face, he would be almost identical to a Korean.

    As for Cro-Magnons, I never said anything about them except what we know now. You can do whatever you want with Cro-Magnons. They're dead.. for 30,000 years..
    Last edited by Test; Friday, December 24th, 2004 at 12:13 AM.

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    I never said lineages were directly related to "races"..
    You did, in youre use of lineages to prove the location of the origin of Mongoloids.

    And neutral markers are not Y-chromosomes or mtDNA, I keep telling you that. What's your point?
    Its irrelevent.

    Everything you argue from is out of this desire to not have Cro-Magnons be predecessor to any other living group besides some Caucasians.
    Youve misunderstood me here, Test, and this time it loks like you honestly misunderstood. I feel there was continuity accross Eurasia and that all northern Eurasians are descended from these Paleolithic Europeans, at least in part.

    I dont know where you got the craniometric map from, but in the terms of that map, Id say the pre-Mongoloid north-east Asians are a mix of F and the K-L-M group (though I agree with it that the differences ae important, K,L and M are just part of a past diversity which also included J). I hope this makes more sense to you, Test.

    That's your agenda, but as I said, I was here to discuss the pure anthro of it all.. If you were not prepared to do that, then that's your problem.
    Do you think you would be allowed on any academic Yahoo group or mailing list or board, and refer to respected professors as "qwacky"? I say you dont want to discuss anthropology seriously, at all. Ive already exposed you as misquoting Cavalli-Sforza.

    How sad is it for you to follow me around for a month, constantly changing positions, constantly repeating yourself, constantly posing self-contradictory schemes, presenting misinformation, and even making up stuff.. just out your sentimental attachment..
    Ive not changed position, or been self-contradictory. And everyone else has understood what Im saying, so they didnt find it contradictory. Ive not been "making up stuff", or presented misinformation, either.

    As to a "sentimental attachment", youre the one who doesnt want anyone to describe early Chinese as having similarities to Nordics.

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Austric is just the hybrid created out of contact between Mongoloids and "austros".. as is Melanoid... in varying degrees.
    -Austric and Melanoid and Australoid were the exact people you said were proto-Nords. Just remember that. (Jomons, Polynesians, Ainu, Upper Cave, Taiwanese aboriginal). I want you to remember so you don't have to waste my time with it anymore. And stick with one position, please.

    As for what I think of the map, there are gaps and flaws.
    I'll make comments about the map if I have time.

    Do you think you would be allowed on any academic Yahoo group or mailing list or board, and refer to respected professors as "qwacky"? I say you dont want to discuss anthropology seriously, at all. Ive already exposed you as misquoting Cavalli-Sforza.
    Expose me again, I didn't see where you brought up Cavalli-Sforza. I didn't even mention Cavalli-Sforza that much and if I did, I didn't mean to.

    One day the austros are Caucasians, the next day the "austros" are Mongoloids.. Just throw away these terms and live as a human being, atlanto-med, for one day. That will change your perception a lot and make you understand reality, which doesn't come in a neat box.
    Last edited by Test; Friday, December 24th, 2004 at 03:08 AM.

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    Austric is just the hybrid created out of contact between Mongoloids and "austros".. as is Melanoid... in varying degrees. Austric and Melanoid and Australoid were the exact people you said were proto-Nords. Just remember that. (Jomons, Polynesians, Ainu, Upper Cave, Taiwanese aboriginal). I want you to remember so you don't have to waste my time with it anymore. And stick with one position, please.
    I think youre confused here Test. I didnt mention the Austric, let alone call them proto-Nordics. I only use Austric as a language group, not a racial type.

    As for what I think of the map, there are gaps and flaws.
    I'll make comments about the map if I have time.
    I agree.

    Expose me again, I didn't read it. I didn't even mention Cavalli-Sforza that much and if I did, I didn't mean to.
    Thats odd, you cited him as a source against physical anthropologists who see a Eurasian element in the Ainu, and I looked further and I found that Cavalli-Sforza agreed with them about the Eurasian afinities of the Ainu. Your words were "I haven't mentioned just one book, if you paid attention. I've mentioned the works of Cavalli-Sforza, Spencer, Underhill and the leading pioneers in this field."

    Since at least one of the sources you quoted, you now say you havent read, it looks more like you really have read only one book about Mongoloid origins.

    One day the austros are Caucasians, the next day the "austros" are Mongoloids..
    Nobody said the "Austros" (Austrics on that map) were Caucasians, theyre southern Mongoloids. What I have said is that the Jomon-Pacific represents a cline between zoogeographical regions.

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    I think youre confused here Test. I didnt mention the Austric, let alone call them proto-Nordics. I only use Austric as a language group, not a racial type.
    What is hell is an Austric language? There is Austronesian and Austroasiatic.
    Austro just means south, if you don't know. I think is there is proposed Austric super family of languages, if that's what you mean.
    Austric doesn't exist as a race, if you haven't noticed. It's just more Austric or less Austric in terms of frequency. I've been patient with you at the begining. You know that. But now it's just a waste of time, so leave me alone. I'm not trying to be rude, but you're not being analytical enough.

    Thats odd, you cited him as a source against physical anthropologists who see a Eurasian element in the Ainu, and I looked further and I found that Cavalli-Sforza agreed with them about the Eurasian afinities of the Ainu.
    ~I've always said the Ainu are a mixture between an "austro" type (Jomon) and a Mongoloid type (Yayoi). You're the one who was trying to pass them off as proto-Nords. In fact, most of the Ainu with high noses are due to this admixture, because of the combining of two different nasal bone properties.
    I even made a thread about Ainu, remember? I've been consistent.: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=26570

    The Ainu is not some pure population, if you haven't noticed. The Jomon might be different. You can confirm this on your own.
    ~Genetically (allelic neutral markers), Cavalli-Sforza says Ainu are said by Cavalli-Sforza to be closest to northeast Asians. Lineage-wise, they are compose of the Yap and M130 beach comber lineages, just like half of Mongolians, Tungusics, and a lot of Amerinds. There is no contradiction. I've mentioned this stuff from my very first post, just not about the Ainu because you never brought it up.

    Your words were "I haven't mentioned just one book, if you paid attention. I've mentioned the works of Cavalli-Sforza, Spencer, Underhill and the leading pioneers in this field."
    Did I say I didn't mention Cavalli-Sforza?
    In fact, I'm going to cite him again:


    Since you brought up Cavalli-Sforza again, I'll mention another boook by him:
    "
    Genes, Peoples, and Languages, p. 148

    The genetic tree in figure 12 still has some flaws, which are discussed below, but, because of the complexity of the relationship and the frequency of mixed origins of populations, a much more detailed representation is needed. The tree we published in 1988 shows that after the first split (separating Africans from non-Africans), the second branch separates Eurasians and Americans from Oceanians (Australian Aborigines and New Guineans) and Southeast Asians. By 1994, new genetic information showed that the second branching split Oceanians from all the rest; Southeast Asians actually split from Eurasians in the third branch. Admixture between Southeast Asia and the rest of Asia is probably the reason for this uncertainty, which has yet to be resolved because of the lack of adequate data from Southeast Asia.

    Since at least one of the sources you quoted, you now say you havent read, it looks more like you really have read only one book about Mongoloid origins.
    When did I say I haven't read what book?
    I meant I didn't read where you brought up Cavalli-Sforza.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Saturday, December 25th, 2004 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Polishing up in removing a crust of hackneyed retardism

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    Post Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    Austric doesn't exist as a race, if you haven't noticed. It's just more Austric or less Austric in terms of frequency.
    The map you posted, shows Austric as a racial term, though I wouldnt have used it as such myself.

    I've been patient with you at the begining. You know that. But now it's just a waste of time, so leave me alone. I'm not trying to be rude, but you're not being analytical enough.
    I agree to leave you alone when you stop claiming Ive made things up, or saying things I didnt etc

    Genetically (allelic neutral markers), Cavalli-Sforza says Ainu are said by Cavalli-Sforza to be closest to northeast Asians.
    He also found modern north-east Asians to be closer to Europeans than to Australasians. Therefore, Test, he disagrees that early Japanese populations are Australoid.

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    Re: Physical anthropology and lineages

    Quote Originally Posted by Test View Post
    Look, you wanna base it on "bones"? Fine. Let's base it on craniometry. In that case the North American Amerind is more even Mongoloid than a Chinese, down to the teeth and the trademark arched and forwarded cheek bones:"the anterolateral surface of the frontal processes of the
    malars are rotated forwards and the inferior half of the external surface
    of the malars tend to be orientated upwards".
    Yeah, the flesh can be very elastic. The skull is almost identical to Asians and their teech are even more Sinodont than Chinese.
    This man below doesn't have the epicanthic fold or fat around his eyes and all over his face, but once you add the fat/Asian flesh to his face, he would be almost identical to a Korean.

    As for Cro-Magnons, I never said anything about them except what we know now. You can do whatever you want with Cro-Magnons. They're dead.. for 30,000 years..
    Virtually all Native American men, and 60% of Europeans are from Siberia and Central Asia.. Combining the skulls of Indigenous Europeans and Indigenous Americans, we can reconstruct our ancestors phenotype of Siberia.

    Here is a Mesolithic community of Ukraine on the Dniepr (representative of R1a), look at their phenotype. Indigenous Europeans were different than us now. They were extremely agile and much darker.


    Here is a recreation of a Cro-magnon of the Aurignacian culture..

    Last edited by Oswiu; Saturday, January 20th, 2007 at 07:28 PM.
    Wielki i starożytny rodzaj, wy zgnietliście podstępnych wrogów. Z starożytną mistyczką może, złączoną byłam waszymi hałasami..

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