View Poll Results: what is the ideal age between men and women?

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  • women should be older

    35 14.64%
  • men should be 0-5 years older

    124 51.88%
  • men should be 5-10 years older

    74 30.96%
  • men should be 10 years older or more

    35 14.64%
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Thread: Why Women Should Marry Young and Why They Should Marry Mature Men

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossi View Post
    How much experience do you have with work? You're a student, and you have time to be online most of the time. You're here and post here more than Bärin who is a stay at home mom. If all women students had the time to spare you have, it would suffice to take care of their kids.
    I think you got him there.
    But what does it have to do with the issue raised by Haldis:

    Why Women Should Marry Young and Why They Should Marry Mature Men

    There are certainly a few points one could think of as well.
    "And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring;..." Plato Politeia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horagalles View Post
    I think you got him there.
    But what does it have to do with the issue raised by Haldis:

    Why Women Should Marry Young and Why They Should Marry Mature Men

    There are certainly a few points one could think of as well.
    It started with my post where I was supporting the idea mature men are better than young ones, because they, unlike students (typically young) have enough means to provide for a family.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...&postcount=204

    Sigurd disagreed and said students are as busy as men who work full time. Ossi just proved him wrong, because students (like Sigurd) have more time on their hands than men with full time jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    ...

    Sigurd disagreed and said students are as busy as men who work full time. Ossi just proved him wrong, because students (like Sigurd) have more time on their hands than men with full time jobs.
    By demonstrating that Sigurd spent so much time online.

    Well, I am running my own business, which means that I am working (more then) full time. But I spent lot's of time online (which, due to the nature of business is of course also work related) and peek in at Skadi from time to time. I am btw. also a part time students of mineral sciences - which is work related as well.

    Personally I am of the opinion men should first acquire the means to sustain a wife and family, so I agree with you.
    "And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring;..." Plato Politeia

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Most schoolwork is done at home, so a student would only be gone from the home for 2-3 hours per day, rather than 8+ hours. Also, you won't get kicked out of school if you miss a few classes in the space of a couple months, whereas you will get fired if you miss a few days in the space of a couple months.
    The "most schoolwork is done at home" thing doesn't mean anything. Whilst you're doing your schoolwork/uniwork you quite frankly don't have the time.

    Believe someone whose mother - at least until I was about 11 - was a teacher and thus spent much time at home ... yet she oft had to prepare for her next teaching class the next day, which oft took longer than the actual teaching.

    Theoretically she was at home, but practically I never saw much of her before she came a stay-at-home mom and later decided to work from home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ossi View Post
    snip
    I am not going to answer any of your questions, because I'm not the one taking this to the personal. My answer was general - the "you" and "the man" was not directly nor indirectly aimed at yours and Bärin's actual arrangement - that is as little business of mine as my own daily arrangement is a business of yours. I questioned her views, not your actual arrangement.

    I will however say that I have some work experience and am in the process of building up a small business of my own, if you really care to know. Much of which is also done by online contacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    Sigurd disagreed and said students are as busy as men who work full time.
    That is incorrect. I did not say that students are as busy as men who work full time - I said that female students are as busy as male students are, and with some in-between-the-lines reading that a woman's household chores and mothering chores are as demanding as a man's duties at work.

    A student woman can perhaps look after one or two children "part-time" --- but likewise can a student man feed one or two children "part-time". If all the single mothers can sustain one child on a part-time job, so could a man on a part-time job.

    If the family has like 7 or 8 kids --- then obviously the mother needs "full time mothering", and likewise the father needs "full time work". My grandfather comfortably fed a wife and two little children whilst having a (for granted, exceedingly well paid) part-time job and still studying - only when they had a third, did he need to drop out and work full-time to sustain his family.

    The claim that a woman could manage looking after children during university whilst a man could not manage feeding them during university --- pretty much claims that child-nurturing duties and household chores are less demanding than work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horagalles View Post
    Personally I am of the opinion men should first acquire the means to sustain a wife and family, so I agree with you.
    I agree with that as well. However, subject to what I specified above, it remains only the ideal solution rather than the necessary solution. Technically, a part-time job pays a small family, if you don't take the luxury. I have a friend who became a father during his apprentice years --- and apprentice years are hardly better paid than part-time jobs. His girl stayed at home with the child - and watching the money a little, they got by well enough even though they had to count every penny.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    That is incorrect. I did not say that students are as busy as men who work full time - I said that female students are as busy as male students are, and with some in-between-the-lines reading that a woman's household chores and mothering chores are as demanding as a man's duties at work.

    A student woman can perhaps look after one or two children "part-time" --- but likewise can a student man feed one or two children "part-time". If all the single mothers can sustain one child on a part-time job, so could a man on a part-time job.

    If the family has like 7 or 8 kids --- then obviously the mother needs "full time mothering", and likewise the father needs "full time work". My grandfather comfortably fed a wife and two little children whilst having a (for granted, exceedingly well paid) part-time job and still studying - only when they had a third, did he need to drop out and work full-time to sustain his family.

    The claim that a woman could manage looking after children during university whilst a man could not manage feeding them during university --- pretty much claims that child-nurturing duties and household chores are less demanding than work.
    A woman can manage looking after children during university if her man works a job and provides an income, because then she doesn't have to work too. That was my point. But if the man is a student, then they have problems, because his study will prevent him from working full time, he won't have the experience and qualification to get a great job and even if he works part time, student + part time job will mean less money. That's why a mature man with a full time job is preferable to a young student with no job, or with a part time job.

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    Alright, let's give a very practical answer here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    But if the man is a student, then they have problems, because his study will prevent him from working full time, he won't have the experience and qualification to get a great job and even if he works part time, student + part time job will mean less money.
    Sometimes, well-paying jobs are available to students in some practical degrees: If you are a Medicine student you may well work in a Chemist's (provided you've passed all necessary exams at ordinary level in pharmacy), if you are a Law student, you might be of use as a clerk at a legal practice; if you are a Business student, some jobs as junior manager might well be up for grabs.

    Assume he was studying a degree in Business and was appointed to be a junior manager in a nightclub on the basis of his last year in undergraduate studies.

    Assume he was paid €16.00 per hour and worked during night club opening times - let's say 9 PM till 3 AM, four days a week. That is a total of 24 hours and clearly part-time.

    Per day, he would earn €96.00, per week he would earn €384.00 ... a month is seen as having 4.3 weeks ... his average monthly salary would be €1,651.20 - Times that by 14 (in Austria) or 13 (in Germany) and his annual wage would be €23,116.80 (Austria) / €21,465.60 (Germany).

    But bear in mind that the academic year only has 7 1/2 months. Perhaps add the time he cannot work at all, during exam revision time, let's call that three weeks each semester. Due to exam revision, he loses €2,304.00 ... yet let's say he works at his job six days a week (36 hours = full time) during his holiday periods - however he earns an extra €3,840.00 there ---- his total annual salary would be €24,652.80 (Austria) / €23,001.60 (Germany) --- a salary slightly in excess of the average per-head product (and well in excess of the actual average salary). If he's additionally funded by his family, he'll be virtually swimming in money.

    That's more well than enough to pay the bills and feed a child --- it is well in excess of the salary of for example a full-time teacher (non-grammar school, but primary or comprehensive secondary), a popular job, who typically earns about €1,200 - €1,400 a month.

    He then gets home by 4AM, if his lectures are at noontime, let's say 1 PM till 3 PM and he uses 2 hours for revision per day and is back at 5PM --- that gives him about 3 1/2 hours with his family, which is hardly less than the average full-time working father sees his family.

    My maternal grandfather worked in a Chemist's during his studies, likewise quite well paid. In comparison, if he had this job in this day and age --- he would have earned more part-time there than my father does after 5 years of working as an administrative clerk, 4 years of social work and 14 years of working as a primary teacher. And also an excellent comparison because both fathered three children (well technically one fathered four, but since that one died within an hour of birth, it doesn't count here).

    That's why a mature man with a full time job is preferable to a young student with no job, or with a part time job.
    What about a young man with a well-paying full-time job and qualifications? Is he, as a provider less desirable than a mature man with a well-paying full-time job.

    Assume you have one man who finished his Bachelor at age 28, his Masters at age 32 and his Doctorate at age 36. He has five years of work experience and is now 41.

    Then assume you have a man who finished his Bachelor at age 22 (I'll have my LLB degree this summer at 20 - but of course, that's not the norm), then his Masters at age 24 and his Doctorate at age 26. He has five years of work experience and is now 31.

    Therefore they are the same in terms of qualifications and work experience. Yet one is ten years older than the other: 41 vs. 31 ... which one is more desirable to the young woman looking for a provider, if qualifications and work experience are seen as the major deciding factors?
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Maybe this is a country/national difference, but here the law&business students would be lucky to earn half of what you described. Nowhere near what a full time employed person would earn.

    As far as 'being at home': children do not require 24/7 constant activity, just that someone is able to watch over them 24/7 and sporadically intervene to feed them, extract legos from their mouth, or whatever. This is something someone can easily do while studying, but can't do if working outside the home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    What about a young man with a well-paying full-time job and qualifications? Is he, as a provider less desirable than a mature man with a well-paying full-time job.
    Yes. Mature men are simply more attractive. I don't like men between 18-20s. They look like boys.

    Assume you have one man who finished his Bachelor at age 28, his Masters at age 32 and his Doctorate at age 36. He has five years of work experience and is now 41.

    Then assume you have a man who finished his Bachelor at age 22 (I'll have my LLB degree this summer at 20 - but of course, that's not the norm), then his Masters at age 24 and his Doctorate at age 26. He has five years of work experience and is now 31.

    Therefore they are the same in terms of qualifications and work experience. Yet one is ten years older than the other: 41 vs. 31 ... which one is more desirable to the young woman looking for a provider, if qualifications and work experience are seen as the major deciding factors?
    Age wouldn't matter then, 31 and 41 are both mature.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    Yes. Mature men are simply more attractive.
    Fair enough - that is your personal preference then. The question was more rhetorical in a way and aimed at the general question --- if success and experience are the deciding factor:

    If a man of 22 and a man of 32 are at the same stage in their lives, with the same success: What, on an objective rather than subjective scale makes the 32 year old more desirable and more ideal as a father?

    Assume for the sake of the argument that the 22-year-old had such a fast-moving childhood and youth that both have also made exactly the same experiences.

    I don't like men between 18-20s. They look like boys.
    Some do, some don't. I know a guy who is 29 this summer and at best passes for 23-24 due to being babyfaced, with his features staying very youth-like.

    Likewise, I know another guy who is 21 --- and whom even I, though being generally good with estimating age judged to be 24-25. With those less observative, he could easily pass for a well-kept 28-29 year old. Even the stage of his hair loss and his beard growth is phenomenal for such a young man.

    Age wouldn't matter then, 31 and 41 are both mature.
    Again, the hypothetical question it is. What if you met them in the last year of their doctorate --- one being 25, the other being 35. Assume the latter is just studying slower and his late Bachelor's is because he'd constantly change courses he paid no attention to ... would you go for the younger one with much promise, having achieved as much at 25 as you possibly could, or the older one who's not earned a single penny as of being 35?
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Fair enough - that is your personal preference then. The question was more rhetorical in a way and aimed at the general question --- if success and experience are the deciding factor:

    If a man of 22 and a man of 32 are at the same stage in their lives, with the same success: What, on an objective rather than subjective scale makes the 32 year old more desirable and more ideal as a father?

    Assume for the sake of the argument that the 22-year-old had such a fast-moving childhood and youth that both have also made exactly the same experiences.
    There's no such thing as exactly the same experience. Anyway, if you're right and at 22 someone really has this experience and a well paid job then he's not less desirable, but most men in their 20s know aren't like that. They're still studying and/or working first time jobs or part time jobs. I'm more likely to meet a guy with experience in the 30s generation than in the 20s.

    Some do, some don't. I know a guy who is 29 this summer and at best passes for 23-24 due to being babyfaced, with his features staying very youth-like.

    Likewise, I know another guy who is 21 --- and whom even I, though being generally good with estimating age judged to be 24-25. With those less observative, he could easily pass for a well-kept 28-29 year old. Even the stage of his hair loss and his beard growth is phenomenal for such a young man.
    There are exceptions, I'm not saying ALL men in their 20s are like that. Besides facial hair growth doesn't necessarily make a guy look mature.

    Again, the hypothetical question it is. What if you met them in the last year of their doctorate --- one being 25, the other being 35. Assume the latter is just studying slower and his late Bachelor's is because he'd constantly change courses he paid no attention to ... would you go for the younger one with much promise, having achieved as much at 25 as you possibly could, or the older one who's not earned a single penny as of being 35?
    If the latter is studying slower and hasn't worked at all then he's a waste, because by that age he should have accomplished something. Like I said, there are exceptions, but in reality I never met such a case. Maybe in Greece or Italy where the men still live with their parents at 38 y.o.

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