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Thread: Classify Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

  1. #11
    Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.
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    The great Johann Wolfgang Goethe seemed Hallstatt-Göta Nordid with minor Reihengräber Nordid influence. He had high and mid-wide oval face, weaker jaws, narrow set eyes, narrow and high nose root, convex high nose with medium end, medium strong chin, compressed cheeks, mid-weak zygomatic arches, weak gonial angles, high head, large eyes, compressed temporals on the head.

    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

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    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Predominantly Dinaric/Noric (almost the same thing) for once some probable Riehengraber. He looks Central European but what is the accuracy of the portraits?

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    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfaz View Post
    The great Johann Wolfgang Goethe seemed Hallstatt-Göta Nordid with minor Reihengräber Nordid influence. He had high and mid-wide oval face, weaker jaws, narrow set eyes, narrow and high nose root, convex high nose with medium end, medium strong chin, compressed cheeks, mid-weak zygomatic arches, weak gonial angles, high head, large eyes, compressed temporals on the head.
    So basically you're saying he's Reihengräber Nordid, Corded and Danube Mediterranid mixed with some more Reihengräber Nordid? The latter being a "gracilised version of Cromagnid"?
    That doesn't make much sense even when using your terminology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfaz View Post
    In my vocabulary the Reihengräbertyp Nordid is a gracilised version of Cromagnonid what is very typical among the Germanic people pure or mixed ones. It seems this type evolved in the nowaydays Germany. The Anglo-Saxon type is the mix of the Reihengräber Nordid and the Cromagnonid, the Hallstatt-Göta Nordid is mix of Reihengräber Nordid and the Corded and/or Danube Mediterranid.
    But to be honest, I think you should stop using the term "Reihengräber Nordid" altogether, as it never was a fixed term in any anthropological work. That's what we lastly have to go by because otherwise classification gets entirely arbitrary. And it already is a fickle "science".
    A gracilised Cromagnid isn’t exactly a type of “Nordid” in the proper sense of the word either.

    In any case these are Hallstatt-/Göta-Nordids/Skandonordids:





    This is Goethe at age 26(when he was already cabinet minister in Weimar, by the way):



    This at age 42:


    And this is a live mask and the statue based on it of Goethe at age 58:



    If there are traces of Hallstatt Nordid in Goethe - I fail to spot any of the defining ones - then it's definitely not the basis of his race but merely admixture. He was also dark of hair and eyes and his pigmentation apparently not very rosy.
    While not conclusive, as facial features, cranial and bodily shape take precedent over colour, it doesn’t exactly point to Nordid either because neither do the facial features.

    He was apparently rather tall for his time – around 1.74m according to his measurements taken for a statue. That only rules out Mediterranid and the smaller examples of Alpinids, which are rare in Germany anyway.
    The face, while long, is not sharp but more angular and the chin fleshy. This points rather towards Dinarid.
    The nose is also of a large, convex, Dinaric shape and broad in the tip.

    Unfortunately, nothing can really be said about his head shape owing to the length of his hair and the hairstyle. So we don't really know whether he showed the typical extreme bracycephaly of Dinarids. But even if he weren't, the rest of his features would at best point towards a Keltic Nordid with a much stronger Dinarid admixture than usual.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
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    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    So basically you're saying he's Reihengräber Nordid, Corded and Danube Mediterranid mixed with some more Reihengräber Nordid? The latter being a "gracilised version of Cromagnid"?
    That doesn't make much sense even when using your terminology.
    Yes, I think he was a mix of a Hallstatt-strain and a Reihengräber-strain. How many painter there are many face from the same man. The profil paint, the mask, the front of graphic show different man. It is so hard classify anybody. Hence I have chosen one picture and I classified that.



    But to be honest, I think you should stop using the term "Reihengräber Nordid" altogether, as it never was a fixed term in any anthropological work. That's what we lastly have to go by because otherwise classification gets entirely arbitrary. And it already is a fickle "science".
    A gracilised Cromagnid isn’t exactly a type of “Nordid” in the proper sense of the word either.

    In any case these are Hallstatt-/Göta-Nordids/Skandonordids:


    The Reihengräbertyp or Proto-Nordid was the typical types of the line graves of Germanics under Völkerwanderung. Firstly A. Ecker in 1863–65 in a graveyard in Baden has written the all dolicocephal one as Reihengräber. He has written that "Elongated, narrow, from back tall skull. The occiput curved, the forehead narrow and low, the well boned supraorbital ridges strong developed, the top of the vault is convex, the side of the vault rather plain. [The face] is high too. [...] By the Reihengräber forms rules a dolicocephal headform, this shall see as the Ancient form of the Franks and Alemans". M. Hauschild used the Rosdorfer Reihengräber. Coon has called this type Proto-Nordic. In 1937 G. Asmus has written again about Reihengräber.

    István Kiszely who was one of the fameous Hungarian anthropologist and all the anthrosites are full pictures from his books, he desribe thus the Proto-Nordic: "The Nordic type's ancient nordic variant. Since the Iron Age this type typical in Scandinavia too. It has two variant, what has difference on the long of the skull. By this Proto-Nordic the head can be extreme dolicocephal, dolicocephal or brachycephal too. The forehead is sloped, the top of the skull has a delicate arch, the occiput curved, The well boned supraorbital ridges are well developed. The occipital curv well marked. The forehead is narrow like as the Fenno-Nordic type [Hallstatt-Göta]. The face can be very high or high, but often have marked points [chin, mouth, nose, supraorbital ridge]. The nose is narrow, the end is medium-wide, the fossa canina typical [the wrinkle between the nostrills and the corner of the mouth]. The body is strong. The average tall is 172 or higher. The proportion of the upper and lower arm is harmonic. The androgenic hair and the beard is blond [what is IRL is not true].

    His source was H. Bach, G. Behm-Blanke, W. Coblenz, S. Frölich, H. Grimm, J. Hermann, U. Jaeger, H. Marcusson, F. Rösing, B. Schmidt, L. Schott, I. Schwidetzky [Egon Freiherr von Eickstedt's aprentice], H. Walter, G. Ziegelmayer

    And here is a picture about a Reihengräber/Proto-Nordid and a Hallstatt-Göta Nordid skull. You can see, that the Reihegräber skull looks like a narrow and gracil version of a Cromagnonid skull, the Hallstatt skull looks like a Mediterranid influenced Reihengräber skull. But this is the story. The isolated Cromagnonid population with sexual and enviroment selection have started to be diverse. Some of them adapted to the cold climatic enviroment, like as the Borreby or the Baltid or the Alpinid in the far colder Alpes than nowadays, the lowlander ancestors of the Germanics have started to develop more gracil and narrower head, maybe this was the sexual idol there. Under the Iron Age this gracilised Cromagnonid population spread through Europe as know as Germanics and they have mixed with the local ones thus the "classical" Germanic faces have appeared as Hallstatt-Göta, Nordic-Borreby, Nordic-Alpine, Nordic-Gracil-Mediterranid, Atlantid, Nordic-Baltid, Nordic-CM.


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    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

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    The Alpine is an infantised Cromagnoid. The Cromagnoid look of the Riehengraber/AS is from Nordic-Alpine blending reintroducing a longer skull as at the Cro-Magnon rock shelter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    The Alpine is an infantised Cromagnoid. The Cromagnoid look of the Riehengraber/AS is from Nordic-Alpine blending reintroducing a longer skull as at the Cro-Magnon rock shelter.
    I would be hardly as the Reihengräber, what we cold written, the Ancient Original type of any Nordic type i the Nordic Group. The R. skull looks like a slightly gracilised CM, f.e. Baltid or Borreby after we gave it from the vice. All the reduced CM has brachycephal and roundish vault and wide face, but the R. type has typically narrow, but the all the face construction is different from the Mediterranids delicate long face.

    Compare the Reihengräber skull with a living one and her face absolutely looks a CM derivation than a Mediterranid descent.



    Or another one, Ilva Heitmann German model. They have not any Mediterranid strain, they are gracilised, narrow headed CM-s, Reihengräber Nordid. Only Coon forced that the narrowing head always everywhere Mediterranid trait, but not, in the Ancient Central-Europe this was path what on the CM-s evolved.




    "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
    /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    He was also dark of hair and eyes and his pigmentation apparently not very rosy.
    His eyes were two-colored (see my previous answer). Father Goethe had blue eyes, mother Goethe had light brown eyes.

    His skin got a little bit tanned because he walked a lot. Maybe Tischbein gave the most accurate depiction of his natural skin tone.

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