View Poll Results: What do you think: Where did the Proto-Indo-Europeans live?

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  • between North and Black Sea (indigenous farmers)

    14 45.16%
  • Anatolia (neolithic farmers)

    7 22.58%
  • Ukraine (patriarchalic Kurgan semi-nomades)

    7 22.58%
  • Don´t know/Who cares?

    3 9.68%
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Thread: Danubian Bassin: the Indo-European Urheimat?

  1. #11
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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Only two words:
    Iranian Highland

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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shapur
    Only two words:
    Iranian Highland
    That's three words


    Seriously:

    @ Everyone:
    Which language family is closest related to the IE family?

  3. #13
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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Awar
    Which language family is closest related to the IE family?
    Nobody knows. One theory recognises an Indo-Uralic group, while one suggested is that Indo-European is an offshoot from "Macro-Cushitic" and related to Berber, Cushitic and Semitic languages. (This isn't counting wether Anatolian is outside Indo-European or not.)
    Last edited by morfrain_encilgar; Saturday, December 4th, 2004 at 06:07 AM.

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    Post AW: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    @Shapur

    Sorry, I should have offered an opportunity to vote for other places as well.

    We had this dicsussion before, so here´s a short summary of my view:
    The IE history of Iran goes back at least to the Bactrian culture from 3500 BC
    on but the genetic and linguistic surveys are incapable to substantiate this claim:
    (i) Diversity of R1a is highest in the northern steppes, present-day Ukraine.
    (ii) Some Iranian haplogroups like mtdna subclade U7 have not or to a neglegible extent
    been introduced into the European populations.
    (iii) Iran shows very few linguistic diversity with only one IE subbranch present.
    (iv) Archeology is indicating European continuity and no emigration from Iran.

    @Awar

    Phonetic statistics is hinting at some relations with the Uralic and Afro-Asiatic
    families but it isn´t really statistically significant and therefore pure speculation.

    Lately some progress has been made about Uralic whose relationship with
    Yukagir has been fairly commonly accepted. From there now the other
    palaeo-Sibiric languages (Koryak and Chukchi) are looming.
    This also might shift the Uralic homeland far into the east.

  6. #16
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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf
    @Shapur

    Sorry, I should have offered an opportunity to vote for other places as well.

    We had this dicsussion before, so here´s a short summary of my view:
    The IE history of Iran goes back at least to the Bactrian culture from 3500 BC
    on but the genetic and linguistic surveys are incapable to substantiate this claim:
    (i) Diversity of R1a is highest in the northern steppes, present-day Ukraine.
    (ii) Some Iranian haplogroups like mtdna subclade U7 have not or to a neglegible extent
    been introduced into the European populations.
    (iii) Iran shows very few linguistic diversity with only one IE subbranch present.
    (iv) Archeology is indicating European continuity and no emigration from Iran.
    To (I) is this a proof for an Ukraine origin theory? No!
    To (II) is the mtDNA important by an agricultural expansion? No!
    To (III) linguistic diversity? Could you detail your opinion. Thx
    To (IV) have you ever read some genetical statistics? So on which studies do you base your statements?


  7. #17
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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shapur
    To (I) is this a proof for an Ukraine origin theory? No!
    Well, it's proof that R1a spread from there. And it appears everywhere Satem branch IE appears

    To (II) is the mtDNA important by an agricultural expansion? No!
    I don't think so either.

    To (IV) have you ever read some genetical statistics? So on which studies do you base your statements?
    Well, where's your proof that there was migration FROM Iran into Europe?

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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf
    @Shapur

    Sorry, I should have offered an opportunity to vote for other places as well.

    We had this dicsussion before, so here´s a short summary of my view:
    The IE history of Iran goes back at least to the Bactrian culture from 3500 BC
    on but the genetic and linguistic surveys are incapable to substantiate this
    Actually there is no proof that bactrian culture was indo-european. Simply because no script or language can be discerned. Elamite I believe is the earliest language attested in southwestern Iran.

    There is no proof that people with NRY groups R1a M7 spoke indo-european its just conjecture. Moreover R1a diversity in India -pakistan is higher than that of Ukraine.

    Hittite I guess is the earliest evidence of IE but it is full of hurrian loan words. Vedic and avestan languages are very pure IE languages with very little loans( > 95 percent ) but they cannot be reliably dated.

    Raj

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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    @Shapur

    some additions:

    (ii) I wouldn´t simply count any mtdna argument out because the culture
    of the IE urvolk must have been patrilocal.
    (PIE knows no names for relatives on the maternal side whereas on the
    paternel side *swekros brother-in-law, *snuros daughter-in-law and others
    have been reconstructed.)

    (iii) linguistic diversity = variety of only distantly related IE languages

    (iv) archeological evidence: There are some indications that the
    expansion of neolithic cultures into Europe was more of a cultural movement than a movement of people.

    For example, let´s have a closer look on the propagation of LBK into middle europe:

    -cultural continuity with some foreign technical improvements
    -very fast expansion rate
    -Weapon finds do not found a major combat which would be obvious between
    ethnically different populations.
    -Geographically hunter-gatherer communities weren´t seperated from the
    agricultural movement. E.g., in contrast the ethnically different bell
    beaker and SK communities avoided each other and were divided by large
    forests.
    Furthermore the mesolithic people had cultivated the primitive grain
    sort Triticum monococcum, so the neolithic "revolution" was in fact more
    of an improvement of agricultural efficiency.

    @rbanerjee

    The non-IE substrate in Hittitic is mainly proto-Hattic from where the
    Hittites even borrowed their own name.

    I can´t proof the IE character of the Bactrian culture but it has a
    high degree of historic probability. Excuse me if I don´t further comment
    on this special topic. You know Bernard Sergent, don´t you? Although I
    strongly disagree with his hypothesis of an inner Asian IE homeland I
    share his opinion about the time frame of the appearance of Indo-Aryan
    in Iran and India.

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    Post Re: Where was the Indo-European urheimat?

    And, with best wishes to our Anatolian friends:

    Identification of the Initial Site of Einkorn Wheat Cultivation

    http://www.athenapub.com/einkorn1.htm

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