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Thread: Paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Yes, I've come across all this in PDF documents and I actually based my take on this on all of this.
    If you look at my points closely, it doesn't contradict what you said. I just sort of reconciled this with other evidence so that nothing contradicts anything. (Please read my other thread titled "branching off from Scoob's Cromag thread".)

    The only thing I'm confused about is that arrow tip technology. It seems to be older than when moderns came out of Africa. The age of it's presence in Asia and Europe is at a time when no moderns are evident. Only Neandertals and Erectus skulls test that old. This would indicate something wrong with the evidence or how it's interpreted. In any case, the arrows and the genetic and
    skull material are separated by more or less 100,000 years, so it's basically meaningless and irrelevent, since the Eurasian line M45 is around only 40 thousand years old.

    I don't deny that Amerinds are a mix of divergent lineages, but to the best of my knowledge M45 occurred at a time when the population of northern Eurasia was not specialized into modern races yet. They formed a continuous gradient of northern/"ambiguous"-looking people.

    M117 is European-specific, and thus racially-specific, but M117 split from M45 30,000 years ago.

    It's important not to mix up lineage with race, since most of the lines came about before the onset of modern races. Also, founder effect and genetic drift makes haplo-maps really wacky.

    The thing is that the "Eurasian" M45 you are talking about is what the eastern Siberians such as the Chuckchi have as their lineage, but they look the most Mongoloid. So, it doesn't square-well together.
    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 06:50 PM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    The only thing I'm confused about is that arrow tip technology. It seems to be older than when moderns came out of Africa. The age of it's presence in Asia and Europe is at a time when no moderns are evident and only Neandertals and Erectus would indicate something wrong with the evidence or how it's interpreted.
    A problem with genetic studies is the paucity of data, and even data gathering methods. It would be much better (and more scientifically rigorous) if we sampled and classified individuals based on geography rather than ethnicity/nationality. Also, certain areas (Central Asia, Africa, etc) are quite undersampled.

    So far no genetic evidence has been found of non-African archaic sapiens contribution to modern humans. Perhaps some will be found in the future. Or maybe modern humans encountered erectus, copied their technology, and killed or displaced them. Think of Squanto and the Pilgrims.

    I don't deny that Amerinds are a mix of divergent lineages, but to the best of my knowledge M45 occurred at a time when the population of northern Eurasia was not specialized into modern races yet. They formed a continuous gradient of northern/"ambiguous"-looking people. M117 is European-specific, and thus racially-specific, but M117 split from M45 30,000 years ago.
    Right. See my thread on Cromags. S Europeans often comment on how "Asian" some Northern Europeans can appear. Even Irish ocassoinally have "Asian eyefolds" - perhaps it is from this proto-Eurasian group.

    It's important not to mix up lineage with race, since most of the lines came about before the onset of modern races. Also, founder effect and genetic drift makes haplo-maps really wacky.
    Right. Y Chromsomes are subject to quick drift and replacement - and also cultural selective factors (most modern societies are patrilineal).

    The thing is that the "Eurasian" M45 you are talking about is what the eastern Siberians such as the Chuckchi have as their lineage, but they look the most Mongoloid. So, it doesn't square-well together.
    Well, if there was a Eurasian heartland that was a source for many populations, that means that derivative populations each contain only a subset of the original diversity. Perhaps the extreme "Mongoloid" type (as exemplified by the Chukchi portrait) was one type among many found in the original diverse population. Or perhaps the genes were there, and weren't visible until selection on derivative NE Asian populations. I think there was also an important contribution of Southeast Asian ("Paleomongol" by Agrippa's terminology) to N Asian nomads. I don't know enough about the archaeological evidence to really make a judgement.

    It's possible that groups now in the far north, such as Chukchi, only arrived there recently as they were pushed outwards by the Chinese neolithic expansion.

    I will keep my eyes peeled for material that elucidates the origin of East Asians and post anything I find that's relevant.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    A problem with genetic studies is the paucity of data, and even data gathering methods. It would be much better (and more scientifically rigorous) if we sampled and classified individuals based on geography rather than ethnicity/nationality. Also, certain areas (Central Asia, Africa, etc) are quite undersampled.

    So far no genetic evidence has been found of non-African archaic sapiens contribution to modern humans. Perhaps some will be found in the future. Or maybe modern humans encountered erectus, copied their technology, and killed or displaced them. Think of Squanto and the Pilgrims.

    Right. See my thread on Cromags. S Europeans often comment on how "Asian" some Northern Europeans can appear. Even Irish ocassoinally have "Asian eyefolds" - perhaps it is from this proto-Eurasian group.

    Right. Y Chromsomes are subject to quick drift and replacement - and also cultural selective factors (most modern societies are patrilineal).

    Well, if there was a Eurasian heartland that was a source for many populations, that means that derivative populations each contain only a subset of the original diversity. Perhaps the extreme "Mongoloid" type (as exemplified by the Chukchi portrait) was one type among many found in the original diverse population. Or perhaps the genes were there, and weren't visible until selection on derivative NE Asian populations. I think there was also an important contribution of Southeast Asian ("Paleomongol" by Agrippa's terminology) to N Asian nomads. I don't know enough about the archaeological evidence to really make a judgement.

    It's possible that groups now in the far north, such as Chukchi, only arrived there recently as they were pushed outwards by the Chinese neolithic expansion.

    I will keep my eyes peeled for material that elucidates the origin of East Asians and post anything I find that's relevant.
    I agree with what you said, except for two things.

    -There has been enough population samples based on location in the recent years, atleast enough to form a rough draft of origins and processes.

    -The paleo/southern Mongoloid arrived into SE Asia around the Neolithic, as evident by archeology. Before this time the region was inhabited by negrito/australoid people. Even to this day, that australoid component is strong. But the pure paleo as well as southern Mongoloid seems to have developed north and returned/colonized and were pushed back by more northerly "classical" Mongoloids. This is the only interpretation that makes sense when you reconclie all the evidence from divergent fields.

    I'm dying to get my hands on Prehistoric Mongoloid Dispersals, published by Cambridge in 1996. So far I've only been able to get second-hand info from it. The book is out of print, hard to get, and expensive (150$) and the only one of it's kind so detailed.
    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 08:26 PM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Interesting discussion.

    I only want to add to this comment:
    The thing is that the "Eurasian" M45 you are talking about is what the eastern Siberians such as the Chuckchi have as their lineage, but they look the most Mongoloid. So, it doesn't square-well together.
    That I dont think he is a good example for a progressive Mongolid, though he is specialized in a Mongolid direction.
    He has some rather primitive features and looks rather altered compared to the usual appearance of Tungids and Sinids.

    Furthermore you both pointed out that some lineages are older than modern races, what is obvious, and that some kind of specialization might have occured later or even on different locations analogically.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    -The paleo/southern Mongoloid arrived into SE Asia around the Neolithic, as evident by archeology. Before this time the region was inhabited by negrito/australoid people. Even to this day, that australoid component is strong. But the pure paleo as well as southern Mongoloid seems to have developed north and returned/colonized and pushed back by more northerly "classical" Mongoloids. This is the only interpretation that makes sense when you reconclie all the evidence of from divergent fields.
    So maybe the "Mongoloid" types originated in the East Asian Core popuation that the craniometric article refers to. In this case, I think Sinid would be a better, more geographically specific name. "Mongoloid" sounds outdated and also is related to Down's Syndrome.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    So maybe the "Mongoloid" types originated in the East Asian Core popuation that the craniometric article refers to. In this case, I think Sinid would be a better, more geographically specific name. "Mongoloid" sounds outdated and also is related to Down's Syndrome.
    I hope no one minds me butting in here, i dont have anything to add but i'd just like to make a suggestion.
    Instead of naming anthropological types after certain ethnic groups would it not be better to name them after the geographic areas where they are predominantly found.
    Mongoloid of course comes from the Mongols and Sinid i believe is from Sinitic, i.e. Chinese.
    Would a term similar to Asiatic and paleoasiatic not be better? Instead of Mongoloid or Sinid.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    "Mongoloid" for Down Syndrom will die out anyway because of PC and the inappropriate character.
    But Mongols are the most typical type for this race because of their extreme character. They are not the most progressive or balanced Mongolid type, but they have the most extreme specialization in the "Mongolid" direction if we see races as a tendency.

    Sinids are much more numerous but have a greater variation and are not that extreme compared to the Tungids (Mongols and Tungus people in special).
    Therefore I think Mongolid is still the best, and of course established term.

    So Sinids is right for the subrace and of course for the main population of the "Mongolid race" as well.

    I dont think it would make too much sense to change already established, useful terms which are easy to understand.
    (Same is true for Europid/Caucasoid and Negrid)
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Enigma
    I hope no one minds me butting in here, i dont have anything to add but i'd just like to make a suggestion.
    Instead of naming anthropological types after certain ethnic groups would it not be better to name them after the geographic areas where they are predominantly found.
    Mongoloid of course comes from the Mongols and Sinid i believe is from Sinitic, i.e. Chinese.
    Would a term similar to Asiatic and paleoasiatic not be better? Instead of Mongoloid or Sinid.
    The problem here is that Asia is a huge landmass, much larger than Europe. Simple designations such as "Asiatic" or even "Paleoasiatic" might mask a wide range of diversity within the group. "Sinid" is rather precise, since the Asian Neolithic originated in this region. Perhaps we could call it Asian Neolithic? I need to do some reading to familiarize myself with the available information on this region before I say much else.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    I was talking about the book Prehistoric Mongoloid Dispersals not knowing that someone had already made a thread (with a lot of what seems to be his own interpretation information).

    This is a quote from the book. It seems to agree with what I said.
    Page 183:

    Neo-Mongoloids include Buryats, Eskimo, Chuckchi, and north Chinese. They have extreme Mongoloid, cold-adapted features. Paleo-Mongoloids are less Mongoloid and are less cold-adapted. They include American Indians, Filippinos, Polynesians, and Burmese.
    At one time people who were intermediate between whites and Mongoloids lived in northern Asia, Japan, and the Americas. They have been called proto-Nordics and paleo-mongoloids. They included the Jomon People of prehistoric Japan and their descendants, the Ainu, some of which look Caucasian. Japan has a much milder climate because it is near the sea and at a lower altitude. Also, the Jomon people were technologically advanced; they invented the world's first pottery around 11,000 BC. Historically, Mongoloid peoples moved into southeast Asia and mixed with Australoids to form the modern neo-Mongoloids.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    I am skimming through the chapter on Asia in the pop-sci book "Mapping Human History" by Olson.

    Here's a basic outline:

    80-65 kya: Humans leave NE Africa and migrate east along the coasts of Southern Arabia, India
    65 kya: Humans in Australia
    40 kya: Moder humans in interior of SE Asia
    26 kya: Modern humans living as far north as Beijing

    Overall in Asia: Gradual population movement from south to north, with a thick overlay of subsequent migrations and intermarriage (p. 131). Levels of genetic variation higher in southern areas of Asia, suggesting origin there.

    Also invasions into China by nomads in historical times. North Asia has been a corridor of East-West gene flow prehistorically and historically. Influences from West by this route at various times. (See other posts for more details on this).

    Important subsequent events include agricultural expansions from N China (Yangtze and Yellow River regions) between 7000-6000 BCE.

    p. 132: Emergence of features that Westerners think of as peculiarly Asian: epicanthic fold, light skin, relatively flat face. Absent among New Guineans, Australians, Polynesians. Pronounced in northern Asia, with secondary distribution in Southern Asia that is probably related to the expansion of agricultural northerners to the south.

    Distinctive features might be (as anthropologists have long thought) cold adaptations at end of last Ice Age. But effects of cultural/sexual selection might be indistinguishable from effects of natural selection.

    Distribution of these features varies by region Japan occupied more than 10kya by Jomon, who resemble modern New Guineans and Australians more than Chinese. Protomorphic ["Paleomongolid"] faces, more contoured than "Chinese" look. Might represent early migration of people north from Australia/SE Asia before development of Chinese features ["Neomongolid"]. 2,300 years ago Yayoi invade from Korean peninsula, with distinctive Mongoloid features. Mixed with Jomon to produce modern Japanese. Ainu might represent more Jomon-like people.

    My notes: So PaleoAsians (literally, living during the Paleolithic) could include quite a variety of peoples, from Ainu to SE Asians to Australians and similar types, to W Asian types with influence from even further West. Asia is a huge landmass with quite a bit of variety. Then NeoAsians (literally, Neolithic people from China) expanded from North China, pushing other peoples outwards in all directions and mixing with them in the process. So it's literally like an ocean wave expanding out and then fizzling eventually.

    Other processes, such as invasions from the West have continued, but with less influence than before due to new demographic strength of large, populous agricultural communities/civilizations.

    N.b. In general all of these areas are subject to ebb and flow of migrations. One problem with older anthro models is that they are rather static, while the truth (especially over tens of thousands of years) has been more dynamic. Corridors of influence (likely used multiple times as climate and other factors fluctuated) such as S Asian coastlines and N Asian steppes have been traveled multiple times in "waves" with varying levels of influence.
    Last edited by Scoob; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 10:24 PM.
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