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Thread: Paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

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    Post Paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    According to Early Mongoloid Dispersals, which matches my conclusions based on all evidence I know, the "classical" Mongoloid phenotype developed in Siberia in respond to the last ice age. This type later expanded and absorbed and pushed the paleo-Mongoloid unspecialized type into the periphery.
    There are still types found all over Asia resembling Amerinds. It can't be because of some sort of "Caucasian" factor, because this type is found all over Asia and there is no genetic nor archeological evidence for a "Caucasian" migration of such scale. (You'd figure there'd be some for migration on such a scale.) Also, the people who tend to have this phenotype tend to have olive skin, much darker than the classical Mongoloid and totally different from the appearances of Central Asian and West Siberian hybrids.

    A man in east central China. This type is fairly common, contrary to Western preconceptions.


    Taiwanese aboriginals, who are probably good examples of paleo-Mongoloids

    Filipino and other isolated tribesman in SE Asia tend to not have bred with negritos.


    Menke Bateer, a Mongol:


    An unmixed Chinese actor from west Central China:

    Yi (Sino-Tibetan) minority of southwest China
    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 07:38 AM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Most of these are no typical Palaemongolids imo.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    It depends on what you mean by "paleo"...
    -There is the most unspecialized kind...
    -There is the most specialized kind
    -And there is all the stuff in-between

    And then there is something people on here call "neo"...

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Here is a world race map:
    http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.p...chmentid=17035

    Here is the classic definition of Palaemongolid:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7701

    There are, after Eickstedt and other, different subtypes of Palaemongolids, some are more progressive, others more paedomorph-infantile and others archemorph-primitive, oftentimes combined with Australoid/Weddoid/Negritid admixture.

    But the most distinctive and typical form of the Palaemongolids is paedomorph-infantile in both head and body proportions.
    http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.p...achmentid=7252

    Most Chinese people are Sinid but there are different kinds of admixture in all Han-Chinese groups.

    The most important difference is from North to South. Northern Chinese people are usually the most progressive and of the Northern Sinid type, from there, going South, the Central- and Southern Sinid type follows which is a tendency clearly towards Palaemongolids in the South.

    What is usually meant with Neomongolid and Palaeasiatic or Palaemongolid by some is not the same as the Palaemongolid type but means the difference between Mongolids in the narrower sense and those forms not that specialized.

    But in fact Tungids, Sinids and at least unmixed Palaemongolids of the Northern variants are clearly Neomongolids alltogether afaik-imo.

    Quite typical Palaemongolid mostly from the Thai:






    Vietnamese of the Palaemongolid type:



    And from Myanmar (right with stronger Weddoid admixture):



    Compared to Chinese of the Sinid type:






    Almost every actor in this movie was typical Sinid, most Northern-, Nordsinid and very progressive Mongolid types:

    Last edited by Agrippa; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 05:37 PM.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    What I mean by "paleo" is "unspecialized" or "proto".
    What you would call "paleo" is what I would call "classical".
    I prefer mine since it makes more sense for me.
    Also, the term paleo is very loose. I've seen Amerinds being referred to as "paleo".

    This is my idea of "paleo".
    Amazonian Indian:


    Can you resize you image?

    others archemorph-primitive, oftentimes combined with Australoid/Weddoid/Negritid admixture
    Yes. This would be it. Filipino tribesman:

    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 05:22 PM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    For better understanding I added some more pictures of rather typical individuals.

    But Palaemongolid is, at least in the German terminology, typical for South East Asian Mongolids.

    If its about the Indianid types I'm not really sure because they are imo not fully Mongolid anyway.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    For better understanding I added some more pictures of rather typical individuals.

    But Palaemongolid is, at least in the German terminology, typical for South East Asian Mongolids.
    Actually southeast Asian Mongolids are extremely mixed with australoid/negrito elements. Australoids were the native population well into the neolithic.
    Some of the pictures you showed do seem to have that unspecialized look. That that's my point exactly. The unspecialized people can pass for Amerinds.
    The paleo/unspecialized type was pushed farther and farther to the periphery by the "classical" Siberian types.

    This one obviously has negrito or veddoid/sudroid/australoid admixture. They usually have fleshy lips and noses and the face just resembles australoids (I include negrito into this group and "weddoid" or veddoid). The ones mixed with negrito/Papuan/Melanesian do look different from the ones mixed with veddoid/sudroid.

    This is a good example of negrito admixture:


    It's important not to confused negrito/australoid admixture with paleo/unspecialized... The admixture ones tend to seem less progressive.

    Your examples also seem to be of this mixture:




    Below, the man on the right could have Indian admixture (but also Veddoid), which isn't uncommon in Burma, the source of the picture. Actually historical Indian admixture is significant in SE Asia, which makes the region very complicated.
    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 07:21 PM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Test
    Actually southeast Asian Mongolids are extremely mixed with australoid/negrito elements. Australoids were the native population well into the neolithic.
    The pictures you showed do seem to have that unspecialized look. That that's my point exactly. These people can pass for Amerinds.
    The paleo/unspecialized type was pushed farther and farther to the periphery by the "classical" Siberian types.
    Thats absolutely right but some of them had/have clear Mongolid features just of another, not that specialized types like the Tungids and Sinids, but specialized in another (paedomorphic-tropical) direction.
    This is not only the result of admixture but its a specialization on their own for those regions imo.

    The girls from Bali from the link I posted f.e. dont have real (at least no recent or strong) admixture of Australoid-Negritid types but are still quite different from the continental Sinid type of the Mongolids.
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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Thats absolutely right but some of them had/have clear Mongolid features just of another, not that specialized types like the Tungids and Sinids, but specialized in another (paedomorphic-tropical) direction.
    This is not only the result of admixture but its a specialization on their own for those regions imo.

    The girls from Bali from the link I posted f.e. dont have real (at least no recent or strong) admixture of Australoid-Negritid types but are still quite different from the continental Sinid type of the Mongolids.
    No, they definitely seem to have negrito/australoid admixture in my eyes. The the fleshy lips and nose and other intangible things are obvious.

    But there are types of the more pure southern Mongoloid types. Megawati, the president of Indonesia, for example, and Arroyo, of the Philipines. It's usually the elite.

    There seems to be two layers of "Mongoloids" there, an earlier "paleo/unspecialized" type and a later more "classical" southern Mongoloid type.
    Last edited by Test; Friday, November 19th, 2004 at 06:04 PM.

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    Post Re: paleo-Mongoloid phenotype

    Here are two crucial articles:

    Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: A comparative craniofacial view:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=55570

    The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=56946

    Both of these papers are more rigorous (although more specific) than popularized science books such as "Journey of Man."

    Quote from the first paper:

    A combination of two different regional populations appears to have been involved in the initial human expansion into the Western Hemisphere. The regions in question were a mainland East Asian core located in China north of the Tropic of Capricorn and south of the Gobi Desert, and a northwestern component originally running from near Moscow to the Atlantic coast of Europe north of the Mediterranean Sea. The archaeological record indicates that both of these components had been separate in the Middle Pleistocene. The northwestern component expanded eastwards to exploit unoccupied terrain at the northern edge of Asia in the Middle Paleolithic ca. 200,000 years ago. The reduction in robustness that produced the “modern” form from an archaic version of Homo sapiens in the Late Pleistocene led to the emergence of people of similar appearance at the northwestern and northeastern edges of the Old World. Technological developments and climatic amelioration starting 17,000 years ago allowed the population segment across the northern edge of the inhabited Old World to extend north toward the previously uninhabited Arctic (8). At the eastern end of this range, contact with the indigenous core population of mainland East Asia led to the incorporation of some of their genetic characteristics, making those who were first able to move across Beringia into the New World properly characterized as Eurasian. After the end of the Pleistocene, the development of agriculture led to a major expansion of the core population of mainland East Asia and its increasingly important contributions to the subsequent movements into the New World, Southeast Asia, and Oceania. A schematic representation of the placement of the original populations and their subsequent movements and combinations is depicted in Fig. 5."

    Quotes from the second paper:

    "The consistency of the biallelic and microsatellite results suggests that Central Asian populations are among the oldest on the continent. This pattern of high diversity is consistent with an early settlement of Central Asia by anatomically modern humans, perhaps 40,000–50,000 years ago (see below), followed by subsequent migrations into Europe, America, and India, dispersing M45-, M173-, and M17-derived lineages."

    "One intriguing feature of the Eurasian haplotype distribution is that M45, the ancestor of haplotypes M173 [the major European haplotype (17)] and M3 [the major Native American haplotype (10, 20)], is found at polymorphic frequencies mainly in Central Asia. This finding, as well as geography, strongly suggests that the source of both of these migrations was an ancient Central Asian population, consistent with the results of previous studies (21, 22). It is notable that the inferred age of M45 (40,000 years) coincides reasonably with the first appearance of anatomically modern humans and their toolkits in southern Siberia (23, 24), during a period that saw the desertification of southern Central Asia and the disappearance of human remains from the southern Central Asian lowlands (25, 26). There may have been a general movement from southern to northern Central Asia during this period, with human populations following migrating herds of large ungulates into the steppe zone. This initial migration may have facilitated subsequent movements to the East and West. The M173 haplotype is thought to delineate the earliest expansion into Europe, during the Upper Paleolithic 30,000 years ago (17). It is likely that M173 arose initially in Central Asia, and that M173-carrying subpopulations migrated westward into Europe soon thereafter. The extremely high frequency of this haplotype in Western Europe is probably the result of drift, consistent with an inferred population bottleneck during the Last Glacial Maximum (4, 17)."
    "The American descendant of M45, defined by the marker M3, may be as little as 2,000 years old (10); this finding, as well as the fact that it is not found in Central Asia or Siberia, suggests that the expansion of this haplotype occurred entirely within the Americas. ... What seems clear, though, is that an ancient M45-containing population living in Central Asia was the source of much modern European and Native American Y-chromosome diversity."


    "The current distribution of the M17 haplotype is likely to represent traces of an ancient population migration originating in southern Russia/Ukraine, where M17 is found at high frequency (>50%). It is possible that the domestication of the horse in this region around 3,000 B.C. may have driven the migration (27). The distribution and age of M17 in Europe (17) and Central/Southern Asia is consistent with the inferred movements of these people, who left a clear pattern of archaeological remains known as the Kurgan culture, and are thought to have spoken an early Indo-European language (27, 28, 29). The decrease in frequency eastward across Siberia to the Altai-Sayan mountains (represented by the Tuvinian population) and Mongolia, and southward into India, overlaps exactly with the inferred migrations of the Indo-Iranians during the period 3,000 to 1,000 B.C. (27). It is worth noting that the Indo-European-speaking Sourashtrans, a population from Tamil Nadu in southern India, have a much higher frequency of M17 than their Dravidian-speaking neighbors, the Yadhavas and Kallars (39% vs. 13% and 4%, respectively), adding to the evidence that M17 is a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker. The exceptionally high frequencies of this marker in the Kyrgyz, Tajik/Khojant, and Ishkashim populations are likely to be due to drift, as these populations are less diverse, and are characterized by relatively small numbers of individuals living in isolated mountain valleys."

    "Intriguingly, the population of present-day Iran, speaking a major Indo-European language (Farsi), appears to have had little genetic influence from the M17-carrying Indo-Iranians. It is possible that the pre-Indo-European population of Iran—effectively an eastern extension of the great civilizations of Mesopotamia—may have reached sufficient population densities to have swamped any genetic contribution from a small number of immigrating Indo-Iranians."

    "The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45, and M17 haplotypes. Rather, these two Turkic-speaking groups seem to be closer to populations from the Middle East and Caucasus, characterized by high frequencies of M96- and/or M89-related haplotypes. This finding is consistent with a model in which the Turkic languages, originating in the Altai-Sayan region of Central Asia and northwestern Mongolia (31), were imposed on the Caucasian and Anatolian peoples with relatively little genetic admixture—another possible example of elite dominance-driven linguistic replacement."

    "Bodmer (32) suggested that the Celtic populations of Britain trace their origins to an early settlement of the British Isles by Paleolithic Europeans, rather than by a later migration associated with the spread of the Celtic culture from central Europe in the first millennium B.C. (27)."
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