Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

[Scoob]

Here is a comparison of Cromagnon and Neanderthal skulls with flesh painted on with blond coloration.

Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

The Neanderthal does not resembles modern Northern Europeans IMO, although it does remind me somewhat of a caricature form of Vincent Pastore ("Pussy" from The Sopranos).

[morfrain_encilgar]

Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

I agree with you, that Cro-Magnon represents a proto-Nordic type. Most Upper Paleolithic Europeans do have a craniometric similarity to Nordics.

[Frans_Jozef]

Here is a comparison of Cromagnon and Neanderthal skulls with flesh painted on with blond coloration.

Note how closely the Cromagnon resembles many modern Northern Europeans. I think this general Cromagnon/UP type (or variations of it) is the phenotypical prototype of modern "Nordics" from the British Isles to Russia.

The Neanderthal does not resembles modern Northern Europeans IMO, although it does remind me somewhat of a caricature form of Vincent Pastore ("Pussy" from The Sopranos).

Wrong, Neanderthals show a diversity matched by the present-day European population: some would be classified as Alpinoids, others Nordoid or Dinaroid.
The mesocephaly of NW Europeans, typical by a long anterior-posterior length and relative broadness in lateral sense, is at least metrically overlapping the figures for Neanderthals.

[Scoob]

Wrong, Neanderthals show a diversity matched by the present-day European population: some would be classified as Alpinoids, others Nordoid or Dinaroid.
The mesocephaly of NW Europeans, typical by a long anterior-posterior length and relative broadness in lateral sense, is at least metrically overlapping the figures for Neanderthals.

Can you list some Neanderthal fossils with these affinities to modern subracial types?

I've attached some modern Northern Europeans who IMO exemplify the Cromagnon type: Conan O'Brien (Irish-American), Claudia Schiffer (northern German from Nordrhein-Westfalen), and Fyodor Dostoyevsky (Russian). I think this is the distinctive "Nordic" prototype, and not the Halstatt-like type physical anthropologists misleadingly label "Nordic."

Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.

Note that around 22kya another Y lineage appears in Europe, the I lineages, apparently from the Middle East, and now found mainly in Central Europe. I suspect these Middle Eastern people eventually mixed with Cromagnon Aurignacian types to produce the modern Alpine types. In any case, this migration was likely to have introduced a more gracile "Mediterranean" (not so cold-adapted) type to Central Europe.

I think Near Eastern lineages J and etc spread after the Ice Age with the introduction of the Neolithic to Europe, and this is when the long-faced gracile phenotypes became widespread there.

[Glenlivet]

We have discussed this in another thread, but if not Nordid, what is the "Hallstatt type"?

I think this is the distinctive "Nordic" prototype, and not the Halstatt-like type physical anthropologists misleadingly label "Nordic."

[Scoob]

We have discussed this in another thread, but if not Nordid, what is the "Hallstatt type"?

I'm not sure what the archaelogical evidence suggests, but probably some post-Neolithic invaders from the general Middle East or Central Asia mixing with native North Europeans produced the Hallstatt type.

The one multiallelic map I've seen of Europe (Ancestry by DNA) suggests some mixture in Scandinavia with Iranian/Middle Eastern affinities in a largely "Nordic" (I'd say Cromagnid) population.

Also, I was rereading some Y Chromosome and cranial morphology articles. Brace et al ("Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: a comparative craniofacial view") found affinity in UP populations throughout Western Europe stretching to Northeast Asia and parts of the Americas - basically a pre-Neolithic Northern Eurasian population that was later modified in the West by Near Eastern agriculturalists and in the East by Chinese agriculturalists. Native Americans are largely descended from this northern Eurasian group, with varying levels of Chinese-like admixture.

I've attached some more photos with this post of individuals showing Cromagnon-like morphology. Interestingly, when I lined by the sculpted Cromagnon reconstruction with modern photos, the ones it closely matched were the Amerinds attached with this post. Modern Europeans were more different. Also, Kennewick Man and Spirit Cave man both look different, and make me wonder whether Neanderthal admixture did take place with such types.

[Vitor]

that cro-magnoid reconstruction looks a lot mongoloid...not nordic.

[Vitor]

the basques are the most "cro-magnon" people in EUROPE.
I do not think russians are cro-magnons, ok a distant relative...but not cro-magnoids! (only a few minority)

The Irish are another group that are closer to the cro-magnoids.

btw if you classify most britans as nordics (with russians), then you obviously do attribute race affinities only based on skin colour.
that is a big nonsense!

with time most human population living in northern latitudes will get "whiter".


the blue colour on the eyes is less brown melanine on the eyes, the blue effect is due to refraction I believe (like the bird feathers), it's not a colour produced in the eyes!

I may be wrong, but I suppose there must be several different genes producing different blue eyes, with no relation whatsoever.

there are even distincr genetic "divergence" between the dans and the other scandinavians (swedes and norwegens)
you could put all of them in the nordic branch...but I guess it's not right!

[Vitor]

Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.

(more than 70% of the iberians are R1a and R1b)

[morfrain_encilgar]

Also, I was rereading some Y Chromosome and cranial morphology articles. Brace et al ("Old World sources of the first New World human inhabitants: a comparative craniofacial view") found affinity in UP populations throughout Western Europe stretching to Northeast Asia and parts of the Americas - basically a pre-Neolithic Northern Eurasian population that was later modified in the West by Near Eastern agriculturalists and in the East by Chinese agriculturalists. Native Americans are largely descended from this northern Eurasian group, with varying levels of Chinese-like admixture.

Though youre correct that Brace et al implied that the origin of mongoloids was associated with the Chinese Neolithic but they didn't imply that modern West Eurasians are descended from West Asians in the same way, although he suggested that southern Caucasoid popultions were assimilated into the Caucasoid major race in this way. Their evidence seems to me to agree fairly well with the idea of Poulianos, that Caucasoids emerged by admixture between Upper Paleolithic types from the Pyrenees to the steppe.