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Thread: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    most americans think that latinos (mexicans and etc..) are really 100% spaniards.

    maybe you (most of you) don't know how a typical spaniard really looks

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    I just read a book (pop-sci, "Mapping Human History" - so not as good as e.g. "Human Evolutionary Genetics" by Jobling et al) that described the W European Mesolithic as contemporary with the emergent Near Eastern Neolithic. Is that incorrect?
    Because the Neolithic began in West Asia, it corresponds with the European Mesolithic.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    the highest frequency(anciente genes) and also higher mixing (with neolithics or whatever)? this isn't possible!
    My mistake. I meant to say, Spain has the highest diversity of many of these genes. It does not currently have the highest frequency. My original bolded statement is correct: Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.

    most americans think that latinos (mexicans and etc..) are really 100% spaniards. maybe you (most of you) don't know how a typical spaniard really looks
    I am aware of the differences between Iberian Spaniards and Portuguese and racially mixed New World Hispanics. For typical Spaniards, I think of Pablo Picasso, Fernando Cortez, Gael Garcia Bernal, Javier Bardem, or even the people painted by El Greco. Are these people not representative of Spain? All of these people show at least some visible affinity with the Near East - and look quite different from Cromagnids, as it obvious at a glance at the facial structure. Such people are clearly different from Amerind-influenced types such as John Leguizamo, Manuel Noriega, and Jennifer Lopez (who also looks a bit Subsaharan).

    Atlanto-med, my point about the Mesolithic is that it occurred after the postglacial warming (when Europe was more attractive to immigrants from elsewhere (the Near East). That is why I called it subsequent to the Neolithic, even if locally it was not in some cases.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Javier Bardem looks a bit like some Cro-Magnid N.Africans.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Iberia still have the most R1b genes in western europe (taking out ireland and maybe west england).

    maybe pablo picasso type is the one closer to the cro-magnon...

    there is something called founder effect, that might be responsible for the differences in the phenotype.
    and the less diversity in northern europe.

    just look iceland...and watch the founder effect in action!
    genetically iceland is not like the rest of the scandinavian countries.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Javier Bardem is not typical iberian...
    that is...there are no real typical iberians!

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    Iberia still have the most R1b genes in western europe (taking out ireland and maybe west england). maybe pablo picasso type is the one closer to the cro-magnon...there is something called founder effect, that might be responsible for the differences in the phenotype.
    and the less diversity in northern europe.
    Vitor, you make some incidental good points but your overall argument is flawed. Y Chromosome is not representative of a population's genome. It's a marker that is very sensitive to founder effects and drift. It's also under strong cultural selection since the dawn of patriarchy.

    You need to take other info into account. Blood groups are under strong selection, so are also not representative of racial composition. Neutral markers (the more, the better) are needed to asses population composition.

    But even the Y Chromosome map you posted refutes your thesis. Spain and Portugal each have huge chunks of black and brown (North African and Near Eastern) lineages in their composition, which Ireland and Britain do not have. These Near Eastern and North African lineages are what makes Spain continuous with the rest of the Mediterranean area.

    I agree that Javier Bardem looks more Cromagnid than the other Spaniards I mention. Vitor is also right to point out that since Iberia is a source of Paleolithic W European populations, it has more diversity and extra-Iberian populations represent only a subset of Iberian diversity. But to suggest that Pablo Picasso might represent a Cromagnon type is completely unsubstantiated. Vitor, if you want to make your case, you need to show Cromagnon fossil evidence that resembles Picasso. Every Cromagnon skull I've seen resembles those I posted at the top of this thread, and none remotely resembles Picasso.

    Javier Bardem is not typical iberian...that is...there are no real typical iberians!
    Given that this is an anthropological forum, this statement inclines towards absurdity. Just because Iberia has a high degree of genetic diversity relative to Ireland (which is one of the distinctively least diverse nations in Europe), it does not follow that Iberia has an infinite amount of diversity, and cannot be meaningfully characterized by an array of features.

    Your statement is only as true as such statements as "there is no human type." While it may be true in some sense (there is variation amongst humans), it is quite easy to distinguish humans from mackerals or even other primates. And just because all dogs are descended from a wolf ancestor, it does not follow that Bloodhounds (a specific type) are best characterized by wolves (the source population).
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    please it was kind of a joke...


    phenotype is the one that could get selected by sexual means (cultural influence) not the Y haplotype.

    it's blind...Y haplotrpe don't reveal anything in the phenotype.

    blood type could be selected, but still there are lots of RH negatives in iberia, this type of blood is strange, it exist only in europe (more in iberia), and do not have anything good ...

    mothers with this type of blood if carrying a positive baby, would gain (not today with modern medicine) big problems...that is dead child , or even death to the mother.

    And even regartheleess of this problem still the most percentage of negative blood is in iberia (my type of blood...RH negative, like my father).

    even with "negative" non blind genes, we still are carrying them...since the paleolithic...

    yes we have some neolithic blood..most likely from north africa (from middle east) but, it's over emphasized!

    it's only 20% of all our genes (in average.).

    Yes Ireland do not have neolithic blood unlike Iberians,but like most european countries, iberians do have that neolithic blood...we don't live in an island.
    but we are still predominantely ancient...

    putting iberia in the mediterranean people complex (like in argelia), is wrong.

    Vitor, you make some incidental good points but your overall argument is flawed. Y Chromosome is not representative of a population's genome. It's a marker that is very sensitive to founder effects and drift. It's also under strong cultural selection since the dawn of patriarchy.
    remember that iberia is densely populated since paleolithic, so that founder effect doesn't apply!
    Last edited by Vitor; Tuesday, November 16th, 2004 at 12:47 AM.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Vitor, I agree with what you are saying and appreciate the wealth of information you have posted. The reason I argue is that my point in this thread is that the Nazi-derived idea of a "pure Nordic" as a tall, gracile Halltstatt type is wrong. The truly unique Nordics (in the geographic sense) are UP types, which are largely derived from Cromagnon peoples of the Ice Age.

    So in making this point, Iberia is less relevant, as it is a more mixed nation. I have been to Lisboa and the countryside, and I found the people very friendly and the country very beautiful. The sunset on the harbor looking out onto the expanse of the Atlantic is a breathtaking sight that I cannot forget. I have no intentions to disparage the Iberian peoples (I consider Iberia one of the 2 main "cultural factories" that produced Renaissance culture in Europe). I just don't think they are representative Cromagnons in a pure form!
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Vitor, I agree with what you are saying and appreciate the wealth of information you have posted. The reason I argue is that my point in this thread is that the Nazi-derived idea of a "pure Nordic" as a tall, gracile Halltstatt type is wrong. The truly unique Nordics (in the geographic sense) are UP types, which are largely derived from Cromagnon peoples of the Ice Age.

    So in making this point, Iberia is less relevant, as it is a more mixed nation. I have been to Lisboa and the countryside, and it's quite beautiful, so do not think I intend to disparage the Iberian peoples. The sunset on the harbor looking out onto the expanse of the Atlantic is a breathtaking sight that I cannot forget. I just don't think they are representative Cromagnons in a pure form!
    Yes...I agree with you!
    but who are?
    maybe the irish?

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