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Thread: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

  1. #71
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction


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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.p...nco-Cantabrian

    I was right all along...
    thanks Volksdeutscher...
    Last edited by Vitor; Monday, November 15th, 2004 at 02:23 PM.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Yes, you had good points.

    There's another interesting study, Longue Durée of Genetic Ancestry: Multiple Genetic Marker Systems and Celtic Origins on the Atlantic Facade of Europe.

    The Longue Durée of genetic ancestry: multiple genetic marker systems and Celtic origins on the Atlantic facade of Europe.

    McEvoy B, Richards M, Forster P, Bradley DG.

    Department of Genetics, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.

    Celtic languages are now spoken only on the Atlantic facade of Europe, mainly in Britain and Ireland, but were spoken more widely in western and central Europe until the collapse of the Roman Empire in the first millennium a.d. It has been common to couple archaeological evidence for the expansion of Iron Age elites in central Europe with the dispersal of these languages and of Celtic ethnicity and to posit a central European "homeland" for the Celtic peoples. More recently, however, archaeologists have questioned this "migrationist" view of Celtic ethnogenesis. The proposition of a central European ancestry should be testable by examining the distribution of genetic markers; however, although Y-chromosome patterns in Atlantic Europe show little evidence of central European influence, there has hitherto been insufficient data to confirm this by use of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Here, we present both new mtDNA data from Ireland and a novel analysis of a greatly enlarged European mtDNA database. We show that mtDNA lineages, when analyzed in sufficiently large numbers, display patterns significantly similar to a large fraction of both Y-chromosome and autosomal variation. These multiple genetic marker systems indicate a shared ancestry throughout the Atlantic zone, from northern Iberia to western Scandinavia, that dates back to the end of the last Ice Age.

    The full report (also attached): http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/celt.pdf




    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.p...nco-Cantabrian

    I was right all along...
    rhanks Volksdeutscher...

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Vitor, I should add that Southern Spain is high-skulled and largely Saharid (an East-Mediterranid type of Lundman). It would be interesting to study the most common haplotypes of Southern Spain.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Vitor, I should add that Southern Spain is high-skulled and largely Saharid (an East-Mediterranid type of Lundman). It would be interesting to study the most common haplotypes of Southern Spain.
    maybe more in andaluzia, the moors were there until the XV century, there must be some more mixing and it's closer to gibraltar.

    Regarding portugal (my country so my interest, sorry for that...) the southern portuguese have a little more of that north african blood, but not enough to change radically the haplogroup maps (Y haplogroup or mtdna), usually the haplogroups maps for spain are the national average, so I am also curious about that.

    I posted before the MTDNA haplogroup, but as usually only the iberian average
    Last edited by Vitor; Monday, November 15th, 2004 at 02:48 PM.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    I watch these correlation maps, but I am too lazy to try to take out some information from this. I better ask!

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    these smart boys used several variables to guess correlation between those variables, I will study this later...
    I do not have time now.

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    Senior Member Scoob's Avatar
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    No, the Mesolithic follows the end of the Upper Paeolithic, and is characterised by microlithisation.
    I just read a book (pop-sci, "Mapping Human History" - so not as good as e.g. "Human Evolutionary Genetics" by Jobling et al) that described the W European Mesolithic as contemporary with the emergent Near Eastern Neolithic. Is that incorrect?

    Not a lot is known about early Iberia Scoob, but the surviving Upper Paleolithic type in Iberia is Berid.
    Yes, Berids have more of a wide, square face if I'm correct.

    What's confusing the issue here is that Spain is a hub. As I've said repeatedly, it's known that Iberia was a refuge during the LGM, from which UP W Euros emerged. It is therefore a source not only of British people, but also Western European in general. Many Y-Chromosomes and other genes are nodal in Iberia - that is, they have their highest frequency and most diversity. This is because Iberia was a milder climate during the height of the late Paleolithic.

    Another consequence of Iberia's climate and geographical position is that it's a "hub" for travelers. A well-documented example would be the Almoravid and Almohad dynasties that immigrated from N Africa. But this type of travel has happened many times. Miles Espagne's Iron Age Celts (documented in the Irish Book of Invasions, which I see no reason to disbelieve) traveled through Spain before entering the British Isles.

    So the result of all this is that yes, while Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.

    That is why Spaniards do not resemble Cromagnon fossils to any significant degree compared as much as some Northen Europeans do. Northern Europe is on the fringe of human habitation in Europe (not just in moden times, but in prehistory), so while it is not a source of genetic diversity, it can preserve ancestral types which have since been displaced or assimilated in more central areas (such as Spain).

    So while Vitor's data is right, his apparent contention that modern Spanish are most representative of Cromagnons (as compared to Irish) is quite wrong.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    I think it's more related to the climat than to some 'mixing process',
    there would HAVE had to be so many newcomers that the 'UP' DNA wouldn't make such a
    significant mark on the Spaniards.

    I mean, Neolithics made a far larger influence on the Balkans, but, still, Balkanoids are way more robust than any population in SW Europe. ( except for Greeks, Balkanoids are around 50% 'I' , which is also a palaeolithic marker, which originated in the Balkans, and spread to C.Europe and Scandinavia where it mutated into new subclades. )

    Then, there's the R1a/HG3, which is also palaeolithic, but, again, the Poles are more robust ( cro-mag-like ) than Russians, even though this population originated in S.Russia.

    Think about it, nothing can be explained by recent military invasions.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    that is, they have their highest frequency and most diversity. This is because Iberia was a milder climate during the height of the late Paleolithic.
    this is conflicting with this!

    So the result of all this is that yes, while Spain was an important source of European genetic diversity and peoples after the Ice Age - it has also had extensive subsequent mixing.
    the highest frequency(anciente genes) and also higher mixing (with neolithics or whatever)?
    this isn't possible!

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