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Thread: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

  1. #41
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    the ancient picture is from a very known XIX century portuguese caricaturist ...here is his work.

    The way he saw the common portuguese (a little like him I guess!
    cromagnon...
    don't you agree?

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclides

    Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.
    many...!
    just like the anglo-saxon bullshit!
    Are you telling that we still follow mohamed?


    Of course some of us do descend from those neolithics.
    I guess not even 20%

    there are regions in Iberia that didn't even had muslims...
    like northern portugal or northern spain

    and ...they look just like those in the south.
    genetics also testify the similarites.
    the moors in the middle ages didn't contribute to even 3% of all the "new" blood, the contribution has to be older!
    because the northern iberians also have that blood in similar ratios .

    what happened in the middle ages was similar to what happened when the visigoths invaded iberia, they were received by open arms (they were displacing the corrupted roman rule in the case of visigoths, and the corrupted "visigoth" rule in case of the moors).

    but, that didn't displaced the previous population, romans didn't, nor the visigoths or the moors!
    This invasions were only some "elite" rulling (imposing a culture) on the rest of the 99% of the population

    It's just like the anglo saxon crap, british aren't anglo nor saxons...period!
    the same hapenned there.
    again the genes testifies that!

    for instance...
    the A group is the most common in portugal, the B group i(neolithic) is allmoust non existent.

    look at the ratio of that B blood group in northern africa or middle east...
    it's HIGH!
    this doesn't make sense!
    we could have some blood infusion from the neolithic era, but it's even less than most northern countries.

    You could agree or not...
    but that is the case...

    for instance germans have a lot more neolithic blood than iberians, that is a fact...

  3. #43
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    the menire culture (like Stonhenge) genesis was in southern portugal/spain...and after some 1000 years it arrived in england in the form of the stonehenge (reaching even norway).

    it's obvious that people travelled with that culture.

    This calcolithic demic difusion was not proved.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    yes...it's a theory!

    some scientist says that the older "constructions" are from iberia.
    Allthough it's dificult to date non organic matter!

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    phenotype is only that...
    phenotype!

    usually it can change drastically...
    sexual preferences, cultural, climate, etc...

    (even the cromagnon after some time might start looking like the "agricultural" brothers...if that is beneficial in some way)
    It's true that "natural selection" can, to a certain extent, change a population over a period of time, but a homogeneous population cannot be radically altered without new genetic input. The genetic mutation rate is not high enough to account for these 'new' genes necessary for drastic changes in phenotype over the generations. Besides this, most mutations are a disadvantage to their carriers, and tend to be eliminated from populations.

    So then, for instance, the idea that some Cro-magnons evolved into Nordics, Atlanto-Meds etc. is (to me at least) clearly erroneous.
    The fact that only some modern Europeans are similar to Cro-magnons must therefore be because the majority of Europeans' ancestors came from elsewhere, or alternatively, these ancestors' bones have not yet been discovered, maybe never will be.

  6. #46
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    many...!
    just like the anglo-saxon bullshit!
    Are you telling that we still follow mohamed?


    Of course some of us do descend from those neolithics.
    I guess not even 20%

    there are regions in Iberia that didn't even had muslims...
    like northern portugal or northern spain

    and ...they look just like those in the south.
    genetics also testify the similarites.
    the moors in the middle ages didn't contribute to even 3% of all the "new" blood, the contribution has to be older!
    because the northern iberians also have that blood in similar ratios .

    what happened in the middle ages was similar to what happened when the visigoths invaded iberia, they were received by open arms (they were displacing the corrupted roman rule in the case of visigoths, and the corrupted "visigoth" rule in case of the moors).

    but, that didn't displaced the previous population, romans didn't, nor the visigoths or the moors!
    This invasions were only some "elite" rulling (imposing a culture) on the rest of the 99% of the population

    It's just like the anglo saxon crap, british aren't anglo nor saxons...period!
    the same hapenned there.
    again the genes testifies that!

    for instance...
    the A group is the most common in portugal, the B group i(neolithic) is allmoust non existent.

    look at the ratio of that B blood group in northern africa or middle east...
    it's HIGH!
    this doesn't make sense!
    we could have some blood infusion from the neolithic era, but it's even less than most northern countries.

    You could agree or not...
    but that is the case...

    for instance germans have a lot more neolithic blood than iberians, that is a fact...


    ''Sharing the features of mtDNA diversity generally registered in Europeans (all European haplogroups were detected), Portugal has in addition received significant North and sub-Saharan African influences. Frequencies of haplogroups specific to these regions were higher than those reported for other European populations: 7% of North African sequences were detected (restricted to North Portugal and representing almost 3%of the total sample), and sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%. Although statistically significant differences were not detected between the three sub-samples considered, the geographic distribution pattern observed for U6 and L sequences strongly suggest that different population movements were responsible for their introduction into the country, although none of them had enough demographic impact to induce regional differentiation.''



    PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A. (2000)
    Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation.
    Annals of Human Genetics 64 (6), 491-506


    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    ''An important gene flow from Africa was detected in the Atlantic Iberia. Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal, and could be attributed to historic Black slave trade in the area and to a probable Saharan Neolithic influence. In fact, U6 haplotypes of specific North African origin have only been detected in the Iberian peninsula northwards from central Portugal''

    Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

    Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

    Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 La Laguna, Tenerife, Spain. amglez@ull.es


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    ''the distribution YAP(1)/DYS271(A) chromosomes was recently demonstrated to be strongly clinal in Portugal, with the highest frequencies in the south, and interpreted as a reflection the Moorish invasions from North Africa in the Middle Ages ''

    Human Y-Chromosome variation in the Western Mediterranean area: implications for the peopling of the region.

    by R Scozzari, F Cruciani, A Pangracio, P Santolamazza, G Vona, P Moral, V Latini, L Varesi, M Memmi, V Romano, G De Leo, M Gennarelli, J Jaruzellska, R Villems, J Parik, V Macaulay, A Torroni.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  7. #47
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    PEREIRA, L., PRATA, M. J. & AMORIM, A.

    this guys want to be blacks at all costs!


    I can also find tests that say that the dutch are part blacks...
    tomorrow I will post some of those crappy works.

    Most of the time this are really northern african or middle east genes, that are confused by sub-saharan genes by those who want africa everywhere!

    please see this MTDNA map of the world bellow...
    and make your decision

  8. #48
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    conflicting work...
    who is right?


    "Relatedness among Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians studied by HLA allelic frequencies and haplotypes
    Abstract:

    Abstract HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, -DQA1, and DQB1 alleles were studied in Iberian and Algerian populations by serology and DNA sequence methodologies. The genetic and cultural relatedness among Basques, Spaniards, and paleo-North Africans (Berbers or Tamazights) was established.

    Portuguese people have also maintained a certain degree of cultural and ethnic-specific characteristics since ancient times. The results of the present HLA study in Portuguese populations show that they have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid: a high frequency of the HLA-haplotypes A29-B44-DR7 (ancient western Europeans), A2-B7-DR15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A1-B8-DR3 (Europeans) are found as common characteristics. Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans;

    Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.

    The Portuguese have a characteristic unique among world populations: a high frequency of HLA-A25-B18-DR15 and A26-B38-DR13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese, i.e., oestrimnios and conios;

    Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A11-B27-DR1 and A2-B35-DR11, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture. A neighbor-joining dendrogram place Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians closer to each other and more separated from other populations. Genetic, cultural, geological, and linguistic evidence also supports the hypothesis that people coming from a fertile Saharan area emigrated towards the north (southern Europe, Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean Islands, and the North African coast) when the climate changed drastically to hotter and drier ca 10 000 years B.C.

    A. Arnaiz-Villena A1, Jorge Martínez-Laso A1, Eduardo Gómez-Casado A1, Nieves Díaz-Campos A1, Paulo Santos A2, Antonio Martinho A2, Henriqueta Breda-Coimbra A2
    A1 Department of Immunology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Avda. Andalucía s/n. E-28041, Madrid, SpainA2 Centro de Histocompatibilidade do Centro, Lusotransplante, Coimbra, Portugal"

  9. #49
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    The topic of this thread is Cromagnons, not modern Iberians. None of the faces Vitor posted resemble the Cromagnon skull.

    Iberians (and British) populations, like all European populations, have significant post-glacial input from the Near East. Iberians have significant gene flow from North Africa. So do darker Brits, I suspect.

    A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. I think the test's "Nordic" component corresponds with similarity/continuity with pre-Neolithic Cromagnid populations - and suspect it might also correspond in individuals with Cromagnid ("UP") morphology.

    Note that the strongest "Nordic" (Cromagnid) populations on the map are the Northern European and Irish - both of whom are noted for their typically square jaws, body bony faces and bodies, and light coloration.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans;

    Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.
    hum...interesting !

    I believe there might be some blood from the sahara when this was in the process of desertification, this might had forced the locals to migrate north and south. reaching sub-saharan population and propagating and reaching Iberia (in low numbers).

    This african gene reached the northern europe with the iberian migrations, of course there is more of that gene in the south, but still there are some in scandinavia.

    that I believe!

    of course this last study showed less middle age portuguese connection with the moors, so those connection have to be older...much older!

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