Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

[Vitor]

Like some said this is a cromagnon topic...

but ok...
maybe you want me to get expelled from here or something.

germanic-> irrelevant (visigoths and sueves) not even 1%
phoenicians -> again irrelevant not even 0.1% this were more likely comercial outpost...to trade with the locals.

I would love to have a lot of that phoenician blood!
this were acomplished sailors...

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

The topic of this thread is Cromagnons, not modern Iberians. None of the faces Vitor posted resemble the Cromagnon skull.

Iberians (and British) populations, like all European populations, have significant post-glacial input from the Near East. Iberians have significant gene flow from North Africa. So do darker Brits, I suspect.

A better survey of genetic material comes from multiallelic studies rather than Y-chromosome or mtDNA studies. I've attached one from a commercial genetic testing firm. This map clearly shows Mediterranean admixture in Iberians (which I submit corresponds to a Neolithic component), as simple folk knowledge and physical anthropology suggests. I think the test's "Nordic" component corresponds with similarity/continuity with pre-Neolithic Cromagnid populations - and suspect it might also correspond in individuals with Cromagnid ("UP") morphology.

Note that the strongest "Nordic" (Cromagnid) populations on the map are the Northern European and Irish - both of whom are noted for their typically square jaws, body bony faces and bodies, and light coloration.

I object to your confusing Cro-Magnons with Nordics. They are not the same. It is possible that Nordics are descended from a UP population but it would have to include the gracile Cro-Magnons, (Corded, as Gimbutas describes) or some other long-faced ancestors. For instance, the picture of the actor Robert Shaw posted above shows that his is a Cro-Magnon as in the French family of Cro-Magnons but certainly not Nordic.

The genetic map which accompanies this post has been discussed and found to be incomplete regarding Nordics. The Icelandic map has no yellow (Nordic) in it while the map of Iceland and N. Europe is very yellow. This was explained as a failed definition of Nordics or UP, I forget which.

[Awar]

I don't understand what you're trying to prove here.

The Iberians are a mix of various Europid strains, that's obvious, as any other part of Europe. They are what they are since the palaeolithic, the later migrations, of course brought new blood, but as time went by, this had less of an impact on an ever growing population.

[Awar]

The Palaeolithic Europeans might have 'evolved' into a number of physical forms,
who says that they all have to look exactly like they did 40.000 years ago???

So, in one part of Europe, the Palaeolithics evolved into more gracilized forms, in other they remained robust, and somewhere they became depigmented, in other places not so depigmented...

I don't understand what's the problem.

[Vitor]

what I tried to prove here?
that iberians are (the majority) descendent from ancient europeans

But as usual you are right Awar...

[Scoob]

I object to your confusing Cro-Magnons with Nordics. They are not the same. It is possible that Nordics are descended from a UP population but it would have to include the gracile Cro-Magnons, (Corded, as Gimbutas describes) or some other long-faced ancestors. For instance, the picture of the actor Robert Shaw posted above shows that his is a Cro-Magnon as in the French family of Cro-Magnons but certainly not Nordic.

The genetic map which accompanies this post has been discussed and found to be incomplete regarding Nordics. The Icelandic map has no yellow (Nordic) in it while the map of Iceland and N. Europe is very yellow. This was explained as a failed definition of Nordics or UP, I forget which.

The white parts on the map represent incomplete data. Some regions had detailed typing of IE populations into Nordic/Med/Indic/Iranic, and some simply had the basic continental racial types (IE/East Asian/Subsaharan/Amerind). I posted that map because it is the most comprehensive survey of world autosomal genetic variation that I know of presented in a map format. It can be compared with the results of Rosenberg et al, which I cited when I posted the original map. Yes, it is incomplete, but it is far less incomplete than Y-chromsome or mtDNA studies or the existing fossil record.

I made this thread precisely because I think the label "Nordic" associated with a long-faced archetype is quite misleading since such types are morphologically closer to Neolithic invaders than to paleolithic Europeans, who are the most distinctive Europeans. I think Neolithic invaders are less distinctive and blend in with Mediterranean and even Middle Eastern and North African populations, unlike Euro UP.

I think that a truly distinctive "Nordic" type would be people who resemble real Cromagnons, such as the photos I posted early in the thread.

My only question is what Gravettians looked like. They entered Central Europe 22kya, so their assimilation predates the Neolithic, and such people could perhaps be considered part of a distinctive Nordic mix.

[morfrain_encilgar]

So migrations in europe were a constant flux not intermitent arrivals, and not only from a central point...britain also received a lot of people from the others refugees, but the majority were indeed from iberia.
even Iberia did received some other people from the others refugees

Well there was a two way migration without a barrier, so that North African genes have been identified in Ireland, and so that the Iberomaurusian type in North Africa was Mediterranised by Iberian admixture.

[morfrain_encilgar]

Well, whether Mesolithic or Neolithic, it would be postglacial and involve gene flow from somewhere in the Middle East area. My understanding is that the Mesolithic was some kind of response (either by indigenous cultural reaction or immigration) to the Neolithic.

No, the Mesolithic follows the end of the Upper Paeolithic, and is characterised by microlithisation.

In other words, I think there is a stratum in Iberia that might be similar to Brunn Cromagnids, which has later mixed with mesolithic/neolithic immigrants from further East. Likewise, Britain has a UP/Cromagnid substratum that has since assimilated neolithic and also Bronze Age invaders. So the overall picture of modern Spain and Britain have much in common. The most continuous elements (with individuals that wouldn't seem out of place in either Britain or Spain) are those with an "Atlantid" morphology.

Not a lot is known about early Iberia Scoob, but the surviving Upper Paleolithic type in Iberia is Berid.

[morfrain_encilgar]

Don´t forget the mtDNA haplogroup X.Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene-speaking Navajo. European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other.Navajo´s language is related to basque , Chinese and Caucasian languages (except for Georgian)-The Dene-Caucasian group.

Haplogroup X is now identified in East Asia.

In the opinion of most linguists, theres probably no Dene-Caucasian group, because this proposal has never been well supported.

[morfrain_encilgar]

Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.

Yes, in Andalucia the physical type is influenced by Neolithic agriculturalists, according to Lundman.