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Thread: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    To say there was nobody at all living north of the Pyrenees is probably an exaggeration (because moderns elsewhere, had already adapted to harsh conditions) and besides, Magdalenians survived south of the Pyrenees which is why theres an Atlanto-Mediterranean element in Iberia. The Proto-Nordics would have migrated to their west because of the climate change as well, at the same time as the migrations to the north.
    nop...the condiitions were worse than you think...

    even worse than today alaskas or siberia...there was just no food around!

    maybe there was some that survived in the southern france...

    by the way iberia is just not tropical, the latitude of lisbon (southern portugal), is the same as new york.

    the mediterranean climate is the reflex of the gulf current.
    stop that and even new york would froze rock solid...just like Iberia, and even more in the northern regions of europe!
    Last edited by Vitor; Sunday, November 14th, 2004 at 07:09 PM.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Cro-mag?

  3. #33
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Right, but only after an initial Q* (R1b) settlement of the far west from Central Asia around 40-30 KYA. This group then expanded East all the way to Russia, spawning a group that later became R1a during the LGM (while this continuum existed, there might have been some gene flow throughout the Cromag area). This Western Cromag group was then apparently isolated in an Iberian refuge during the Last Glacial maximum. During the LGM, Western Europe was vacated, and then repopulated both from Western and Eastern groups without much overlap in the far West or East. These populations were then later modified with Neolithic and then Bronze age invaders from further East.
    Sorry, I think this is right, Scoob. I was refering to the presence of Western Eurasians as far east as Siberia because I was thinking about youre suggestion of genetic flow from north-east Asia to western Europe.

    Did Western Cromags become more narrow-faced at some point, or did this occur with Neolithic invasions?
    In my opinion, the modification was caused by the gracilising, Mediterranean element which arrived in the Mesolithic (or it could even have been indigenous). It happened before the Neolithic agriculturalists arrived.

    While Basques have mostly UP Y-Chromosomes, their autosomal inheritance has more recent mixture. I agree that British (the dark types especially) resemble Iberians. But "classic" Irish with broad faced, jawbones, etc are the types I consider more Cromag, while others are from invasions. The question is, how much do long-faced Brits and Iberians resemble square-faced UP? I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously.
    Well, craniometrically, many Upper Paleolithic Europeans show a population affinity with the Norse but I dont understand your statement of "I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously". Can you explain this a bit better?

    Atlanto-med is right that parental lineages are often lost over time due to genetic drift, especially within small popultaions (why the far West of Europe is so exclusively R1b, e.g. - they might have been more varied before the LGM). But collecting data on lots of markers can be instructive. Y and mtDNA markers can be good evidence if they both agree, also. Y is also excellent for indicating some very specific phylogeny, but not broad population history (as the misleading Y types of the Basque show).
    I agree with you but the paternal lineages dont often support each other, which is why theyre not the best type of evidence for population affinities.

    Vitor is trying to use them to prove population affinities, not just to track the paths of migrations.

  4. #34
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor
    nop...the condiitions were worse than you think...

    even worse than today alaskas or siberia...there was just no food around!

    maybe there was some that survived in the southern france...
    I was referring more to the possibility of continued coastal occupation alomg the Atlantic coast of Europe, by populations of Magdalenian descent.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Southern france and iberia share the same culture/athnicity even 20 000 years ago...

    this is the same people.
    migrations are not like most think they were...it's just progressive espansion from a central point....not only 1 single point but many central points!

    it's that complex!
    nevertheless even 5000-6000 years ago there were obvious migration from iberia to the northern europe (there was allways a surplus of people in iberia since paleolithic)

    the menire culture (like Stonhenge) genesis was in southern portugal/spain...and after some 1000 years it arrived in england in the form of the stonehenge (reaching even norway).

    it's obvious that people travelled with that culture.

    So migrations in europe were a constant flux not intermitent arrivals, and not only from a central point...britain also received a lot of people from the others refugees, but the majority were indeed from iberia.
    even Iberia did received some other people from the others refugees

    After that the east and south of britain received some scandinavian blood...the anglo-saxon race did not impact profoundly the british...but the scandinavians did!
    the anglo-saxon is a myth...very few people arrived with them.

    this is something very complex, it doesn't work with arrows in a map!
    Last edited by Vitor; Sunday, November 14th, 2004 at 11:47 PM.

  6. #36
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    In my opinion, the modification was caused by the gracilising, Mediterranean element which arrived in the Mesolithic (or it could even have been indigenous). It happened before the Neolithic agriculturalists arrived.
    Well, whether Mesolithic or Neolithic, it would be postglacial and involve gene flow from somewhere in the Middle East area. My understanding is that the Mesolithic was some kind of response (either by indigenous cultural reaction or immigration) to the Neolithic.

    Well, craniometrically, many Upper Paleolithic Europeans show a population affinity with the Norse but I dont understand your statement of "I think Iberians and British share both similar UP ancestry and subsequent post-Neolithic ancestry in some cases, but these did not migrate simulataneously". Can you explain this a bit better?
    In other words, I think there is a stratum in Iberia that might be similar to Brunn Cromagnids, which has later mixed with mesolithic/neolithic immigrants from further East. Likewise, Britain has a UP/Cromagnid substratum that has since assimilated neolithic and also Bronze Age invaders. So the overall picture of modern Spain and Britain have much in common. The most continuous elements (with individuals that wouldn't seem out of place in either Britain or Spain) are those with an "Atlantid" morphology.

    I agree with you but the paternal lineages dont often support each other, which is why theyre not the best type of evidence for population affinities. ... Vitor is trying to use them to prove population affinities, not just to track the paths of migrations.
    Right. Y chromosome data is far from comprehensive, although it can be very instructive. One cannot accurately or completely characterize populations based on their Y chromosomes alone.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandible
    Cro-mag?
    IMO yes. And these types of features: the high cheekbones, wide jaw, square face, smaller eyes, are what Southern Europeans tend to focus on when distinguishing Northern European types from Mediterranean types.

    So such elements are not absent in S. Europe, but they are not so predominant as they tend to be in the Northern areas.
    Last edited by Scoob; Monday, November 15th, 2004 at 12:18 AM.
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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Genetically, I think Cromagnons are associated with R1a and R1b lineages, which are closely related to Native American Q Y-lineages. These people were probably spread pretty wide in Ice Age Eurasia since 35-40kya.
    Don´t forget the mtDNA haplogroup X.Among Native Americans, haplogroup X appears to be essentially restricted to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, although we also observed this haplogroup in the Na-Dene-speaking Navajo. European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other.Navajo´s language is related to basque , Chinese and Caucasian languages (except for Georgian)-The Dene-Caucasian group.
    Last edited by Euclides; Monday, November 15th, 2004 at 03:08 AM.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    my oppinion of southern cro-magnon...

    both portuguese!

    cro-magnon has nothing to do with northern folks...but with both southerns and northern europeans

    I put mourinho (chelsea trainer), to illustrate some possible neolithic(or italian roman) admixture.

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    Post Re: Cromagnon Face Reconstruction

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitor

    The iberians also have long faces, my face (4 cms from chin to the base of the lower teeths).

    Many South and Central Iberians descends from Neolithics and North African Invaders from the Middle Ages.
    Last edited by Euclides; Monday, November 15th, 2004 at 03:15 AM.

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