View Poll Results: What requirements does your partner need to have? (Choose what describes you best.)

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  • I only date persons from my ethnicity (e. g. English, Italian, or Russian) that relatively closely match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    3 7.89%
  • I only date persons from my ethnicity (e. g. English, Italian, or Russian). They don't have to match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    6 15.79%
  • I only date persons from related tribes or my linguistic group (e. g. Germanic, Celtic, Germanic/Celtic, Latin/Romanic, or Slavic) that relatively closely match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    5 13.16%
  • I only date persons from related tribes or my linguistic group (e. g. Germanic, Celtic, Germanic/Celtic, Latin/Romanic, or Slavic). They don't have to match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    2 5.26%
  • I only date persons from the white race that relatively closely match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    6 15.79%
  • I only date persons from the white race. They don't have to match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean).

    13 34.21%
  • I date persons from races other than the white race.

    3 7.89%
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Thread: What Requirements in Terms of (Meta-)Ethnicity, (Sub)-Race, and Phenotype Does Your Partner Need to Have?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    "I only date persons from the white race that relatively closely match my own phenotype or subracial heritage (e. g. Nordish, Nordic, Hallstatt, Noric/Alpine, or Mediterranean)."

    Hmmm, I don't think I could do that anyway...

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    No, North-Atlantids, which is basically a stronger pigmented (mostly the hair) and more gracile Nordid type with possibly Insular admixture from more ancient times has not a close relationship with the Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnoid Tydal and Brunn survivors. Just compare the head and nasal shape. Some Brits (more in Welsh) are partly Insular Mediterraneans. But even those are heavily mixed with other types. If another person of British ancestry is a Mediterranid doesn't mean that you are.

    Europid is not equal to Aryan, but Aryan is equal to Europid. The Swedish ethnologist Rolf Nordenstreng noted that the low-skulled Mediterranid (he also called it Ligurian) had no relation with the racial types of the Aryan people. They were also probably high-skulled, and Pontids and Aistins (East-Nordids) according to the Swedish anthropologist Bertil Lundman.

    Those haplogroup studies on genetic differences cannot be compared with morphological races like some people want to. The Danish, Iranians and the English are clustered together. But an Italian can be closer to the English in terms of his racial type in going by morphological racial systematics than the Iranian. It all depends on the individual. That is studies on a few selected (or random) people who happen be of a certain ethnicity. The reality when looking at a case-by-case basis differ.





    Originally posted by Thorburn
    That's really not that new, apart from the fact that 'dark' Brits are no 'Meds' but the descendants of Western European Paleolithics and even the French are only partly of classic Mediterranean origin.

    Regardless, the European ("Aryan") peoples naturally all cluster closely together; their genetic distance to each other is on average 5 to 10 times smaller than their distance to the Semitic tribes of Northern Africa and the Middle East (including the Jews).

  3. #13
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    Originally posted by volksdeutsche
    No, North-Atlantids, which is basically a stronger pigmented (mostly the hair) and more gracile Nordid type with possibly Insular admixture from more ancient times has not a close relationship with the Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnoid Tydal and Brunn survivors. Just compare the head and nasal shape. Some Brits (more in Welsh) are partly Insular Mediterraneans. But even those are heavily mixed with other types.
    Thanks for your comment.

    With "dark" Brits I was not referring to the North-Atlantid element (which is "Nordish") but to pre-Keltic populations such as the ones in the Cornwall and to a lesser extent in Southern Wales. The Cornish are a tall, heavy-bodied, brachycephalic variety, often with thick eyebrows and brown eyes, and are very distinct from Nordids and the classic Mediterranean type. Coon attributes their presence to the Bronze Age invasions (who were made up of Bell Beaker people, probably a Dinaric-Corded-Borreby blend from Western/Central Europe). They really have little in common with Mediterraneans.

    But, I'm even sceptic that the insular "Meds" (such as shorter, more gracile phenotypes that can be found amongst the Welsh or Irish) are truly of Mediterranean extraction, as there seems to be no correlation between high levels of neolithic ancestry and "Med" phenotypes in Britain. How would you explain this?

    British "Meds", thus, must be predominantly descended from indigenous Western European populations that existed already during the Paleolithic and divergently developed a more gracile and neotenic apparence. Divergent evolution and miscegenation with other types will explain phenotypical differences to other Paleolithic groups of Western Europe such as the Basques.

    If another person of British ancestry is a Mediterranid doesn't mean that you are.
    Nobody claimed otherwise.

    Europid is not equal to Aryan, but Aryan is equal to Europid. The Swedish ethnologist Rolf Nordenstreng noted that the low-skulled Mediterranid (he also called it Ligurian) had no relation with the racial types of the Aryan people. They were also probably high-skulled, and Pontids and Aistins (East-Nordids) according to the Swedish anthropologist Bertil Lundman.
    Thanks for the highly interesting information. There are, in fact, a couple of sub-racial types that have "no relation" to the ancient Aryans.

    I'll thus keep on to use my quotation marks.

    Those haplogroup studies on genetic differences cannot be compared with morphological races like some people want to.
    Nobody claimed otherwise.

    The Danish, Iranians and the English are clustered together. But an Italian can be closer to the English in terms of his racial type in going by morphological racial systematics than the Iranian. It all depends on the individual.
    Nobody claimed otherwise.

    That is studies on a few selected (or random) people who happen be of a certain ethnicity. The reality when looking at a case-by-case basis differ.
    What we would need are definitely larger, representative samples, spread out over the whole nation or population group.

    But what people are interested in are exactly not a few individuals that deviate, but the characteristics of the mainstream or average of a population and its distance to other groups.

    Additionally, phenotypes can be (and are) often very misleading. One or a few different base sequences can trigger a totally different apparence. I agree in particular with Baker that of all racial characteristics, color, if considered in isolation, is the single most unreliable and insignificant.

    Thanks again for the excellent post!
    Last edited by Thorburn; Wednesday, April 16th, 2003 at 04:09 AM.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    The Cornish are a tall, heavy-bodied, brachycephalic variety, often with thick eyebrows and brown eyes, and are very distinct from Nordids and the classic Mediterranean type. Coon attributes their presence to the Bronze Age invasions (who were made up of Bell Beaker people, probably a Dinaric-Corded-Borreby blend from Western/Central Europe). They really have little in common with Mediterraneans.
    Yes, Madison Grant mentioned that in southern Britain, the darker "Mediterranid" individuals are associated with great stature, which contradicts what we know about actual Mediterraneans. Your data about Bell Beaker Dinaric-Corded-Borrebies correspond closely with what I read in Grant about the dark, tall brachycephals in southern England/Wales.

  5. #15
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    Originally posted by NordischesBlutundEhre
    Yes, Madison Grant mentioned that in southern Britain, the darker "Mediterranid" individuals are associated with great stature, which contradicts what we know about actual Mediterraneans.
    Are you referring to nonwhite "mediterraneans" (many of whom are thought of as being short)?

  6. #16
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    Thanks for your reply and please continue to share the great knowledge you possess. I must say that I know more about the racial situation of Sweden, Norway and Finland than I do about certain populations of Britain. I have been in SE England (London, Oxford and Brighton) over 10 times. But personal obvervations are often misleading and that region (especially London!) got many foreigners (Mediterranid Europids from southern Europe, Caucasoid-Veddoid-Indo-Melanid South Asians and West Africans and Carribean Negrids) and sometimes there are European (e.g. if they are from Italy, Belgium or France) students and tourists one can mistake for Englishmen.

    The studies from Beddoe are similar to Lundman's so called folk stock examinations where he talk about dominant types in bipolar and mosaic stocks and so forth. I knew two perfect Mediterranids of Insular type from Southampton. They still looked somewhat "English" for people in their age group, and it's more because how they talked and dressed. Then I mean that one of them could be a very gracile Insular Mediterranid straight from Naples in South Italy. They are rare and we should of course not give a wrong picture of the racial situation of Britain at large.

    The controversy is if we follow the demic diffusion model (DDM) or cultural diffusion model (CDM) of the Neolithic farmers that came from the Levant to Europe. Semino, O. and Passarino have used their results from the non-recombining Y-chromosome region (NRY) to argue that the genetic contribution of Neolithic people may have been as low as 22%. This figure represents the proportion in Europe of the four haplotypes (Eu4, -9, -10, and -11), which were singled out because they show a distinct gradient from the epicenter of the agricultural revolution in the Levant. Although this gradient may well have been established during the Neolithic transition, it is not clear that the proportion of these haplotypes should provide an estimate of admixture proportions. Indeed, admixture is a demographic process, and, as such, it affects the entire genome. It's very hard because one must base the analysis on estimates of the ancestral allele frequencies in each population. The model this is based on is rather complex, and it's based on Markov Chain Monte Carlo's MCMC method which estimate the genetic contributions, p1 and (1 − p1), of two parental populations, P1 and P2, into a third, hybrid population, H.

    That is used to estimate the change from place to place in Europe of admixture proportions of "Neolithic" and "Palaeolithic" genes.

    Under the CDM, all European populations are mostly derived from local Palaeolithic ancestors. As a consequence, under this hypothesis, any European sample could have been used to represent the Y-chromosomes of the Palaeolithic parental population.

    Greece, Albania and Macedonia have the least Paleolithic contribution. Netherlands, Germany, Andalusia got the most. Sardinia got the highest mode and median of all for the Paleolithic genes.

    There is a clear trend across Europe, with the proportion of Neolithic genes decreasing from modal values around 85–100% in Albania, Macedonia or Greece to around 15–30% in France, Germany, or Catalunia.

    Lounès Chikhi, Richard A. Nichols, Guido Barbujani and Mark A. Beaumont found an average Neolithic contribution of 50% across all samples, 56% for the Mediterranean subset and 44% in non-Mediterranean samples. Thus, whichever region of Europe is considered, they found that the average value is more than twice that suggested by Semino et al. on the basis of the more readily apparent trends.

    Semino et al.'s ordination of the haplotype frequencies showed the Sardinian sample clustering with Greek and Albanian samples, far removed from the Basque samples. That result appeared at odds with archaeological data that suggest a limited Neolithic immigration in Sardinia . Conversely, Sardinia appears as an outlier with a significantly high proportion of Palaeolithic genes. This result suggests that the Y-chromosome differentiation observed between Basques and Sardinians today is due to drift from common Palaeolithic ancestors, with little input of genes from the Near East, rather than to a greater Neolithic immigration in Sardinia. This result shows the importance in separating drift from admixture in the analysis of ancient demographic events.

    The average values are 50% and 65% by using Basques and Sardinians as references, respectively, and these are likely to be underestimates. It is however important to realize that the CDM/DDM controversy is not directly and simply related to such average values. In particular, they do not represent the relative proportions of farmers and hunter-gatherers during the initial formation of settlements, but rather the proportion of genes that can be traced back to ancestors in the Near East.

    The original model proposed by Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza is similar as the information above.

    I think that Coon's Keltic Nordic is basically Lundman's North-Atlantid. Now it's not my problem if nordish.com distorted Coon by for example making up an Anglo-Saxon type from Coon's plate Plate 33 NORDICS ALTERED BY NORTHWESTERN EUROPEAN UPPER PALAEOLITHIC MIXTURE: II in his work "The Races of Europe". I understand that it's because they want to popularise and politicise it. Brits can associate it with a type based in a cultural name, although almost anyone can in the end see it's a Falid (sometimes Gothic Nordid) type with a Dinarid strain. Look at the nasal shape.

    Now I know that Lundman also noted that there are Dinarid types in the coasts of Ireland and in the Dover region in SE England.

    The Dinarid is a fairly new type. Lundman thought it's from Pontids in east. Biasutti think Dinarids have mainly two sources, one being from the Borreby type and the other one from Pontids.

    The Borreby source would account for the flat occiput and the brachycephalic tendency. But the Dinarid 1/3 ending of the nasal shape is neither like the Pontid or Borreby. But I believe that there are a variations of the nasal shape and all Dinarids I have seen don't have that kind of hooked nose which is more associated with the Afghanid type. So do we have a Armenid affinity too? I don't know if Taurid is a useful term or not.

    Basil Rathbone (Born in 1892 in Johannesburg, South Africa, of English parents) who was famous for playing "Sherlock Holmes" is clearly Dinarid:
    http://www.basilrathbone.net/potpourri/rathbone.jpg
    http://www.sherlock-holmes.org/holmes/shimag/rathbone.jpg
    http://www.ciudadfutura.com/elcriticon/rathbone3.jpg
    http://www.ytown.com/holmeshome/rotate/basil01.jpg
    http://www.mindspring.com/~tjbayne4/basil.jpg
    http://www.wildsidepress.com/mm/images/Rathbone+Bruce.jpg

    http://www.holmesonscreen.com/Rathbone77a.jpg
    http://www.ciudadfutura.com/elcriticon/rathbone7.jpg
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/outdoors/images2/hound_basil_rathbone_150.
    jpg
    http://home19.inet.tele.dk/soren-kretzschmer/holmes/a_basil_08.jpg

    There is a mistake or misunderstanding regarding what Mediterranid is. I don't blame you. It's because the group is clustered together mainly based on pigmentation without taking account the height-length index which stayed the same since ancient times. Mediterranid physical types may not necessarily share common ancestry. But it's a matter of semantics when we talk about morphological races and my eyes say that there are Mediterranids (the issue is if a Mediterranid phenotype, which is more or less defined as relatively small, slender, light boned, long-skulled race, of brunet color becoming even swarthy in certain portions of its range is what it's regardless of ancestors or not) in Britain and Ireland. I will try to explain what I meant and I look forward to your reply.

    Hans F.K. Günther's "THE RACIAL ELEMENTS OF EUROPEAN HISTORY", Chapter VII, "THE EUROPEAN RACES IN PREHISTORY":

    "In North-west Europe it is the Nordic race which appears, whose original home must be sought there. In the British Isles, France, Spain, and Italy, it is the Mediterranean race."

    The North-Atlantid may be a product of those early low-skulled Mediterranids and the arriving Nordids of Österdal/Gothic race. So in that case it would be a Mediterranid that received a lot of Nordid blood.

    I have never claimed that British Mediterraneans are high-skulled Caspids. One could find out by measuring. We do mistakes by our empirical approach (which is fine enough though). The British Mediterraneans are from a more gracile and low-skulled Cro-Magnon race according to Lundman.

    Professor Nick Bourne, Leader of the Conservative Group in the National Assembly has been classified as Berid by me and some others online at the old nordish.com group.

    Nick Bourne:
    http://www.trg.org.uk/staff/nickbourne.gif
    http://www.acen.co.uk/images/cylchgrawn/dwedwch/NBourne.jpg
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/417001.stm
    http://www.gjwwales.co.uk/network/nickalunmari.JPG
    (on left)

    Those shorter and gracile (they are actually more stocky and laterally built than Insulars) are Berids and related types are found in N Spain and S France, and sometimes they have developed in an Alpinid direction and got a higher breadth-length than Insulars. The Insulars are the Mediterranids with more narrow faces and noses, and the ones with broader faces and lower-rooted, more concave and broader noses with shorter statures are Berids. Lundman thought the Berids were developed in the mountain regions and through famine and scarcity of food matured later. It's then thought that the average type developed in a neotenic direction for the survival of all the individuals. The results are rounder faces and head, shorter and obtuse noses, shorter and stockier bodies. Near epicanthic folds are also a sign of neoteny and eager French scientists were heartbroken when they discovered such traits. But it doesn't need to be Mongolid admixture at all. Genetically this must be explained by a successive loss of mutation losses of environmental inhibition factors. We always need to have a flexible approach when we're studying races. One must sometimes be able to change opinions after careful reflections. A racial type doesn't need to be as it seems.

    The Alpinid type in France is thus from a Berid Mediterranid, it has probably been a slow process, until the postglacial climatic deterioration with its catastrophic consequences for western Europe's cold and humid mountain regions. So maybe it made the Alpinid stubborn and steadfast. The Tydal type in Inner Scandinavia is also from an Old Atlantic element and in many ways similar to the above type, but larger and more Cro-Magnoid looking.

    How long Iberian people had been settled in England before the advent of the Celtics we do not know. These latter came in two separate invasions and introduced the Age of Bronze. The Goidels or Gaels overran the country, driving their predecessors into the hills and fastnesses of Wales. Later the Brythons or Britons came, pushing the Gaels before them to the north; and at the beginning of our era the Romans appeared, bringing with them their legionaries drawn from the various countries of their conquest.

    The Teutonic invaders of England entered by the rivers which open on to the east coast. The Jutes and Saxons settled in the east and south of England; the Angles and Danes in the midlands and the north. Last of all came the Normans. They also were Teutonic, but belonged to a branch of the race which had settled first in the North France.

    I think that it's most likely that the Neolithic farmers were mostly high-skulled Caspids (sub-types are Lundman's e.g. Pontids and Saharids). I'm not sure about this, of course.

    Individuals usually deviate because they are a minority or that they are mixed with a foreign racial element. I look for the explanations for things, not that they are mysteries of individual variation within the race (as if a specific region should mean one single race and all the deviations are variations of the dominant racial characteristics).

    I'm not sure if I understood you well by saying that colour is the single most unreliable and insignificant racial characteristic if seen in isolation. I often say how serious studies are based on the features and body proportions. I have been attacked by many because I don't put such a huge emphasis on pigmentation without looking at the morphology at first. But it's because I have seen blondism in many people with almost no Nordid features. It's not out of hate for the Nordid type I say that the pigmentation is of secondary importance when we classify. I just want us to make more scientific evaluations.

    I speak in general terms many times and address issues that I think is relevant, and I can do it even though I know that you and I agree on a personal level. An example is the three statements that I did where your reply was "Nobody claimed otherwise" :-).

    Thank you,

    Best regards




    Originally posted by Thorburn
    Thanks for your comment.

    With "dark" Brits I was not referring to the North-Atlantid element (which is "Nordish") but to pre-Keltic populations such as the ones in the Cornwall and to a lesser extent in Southern Wales. The Cornish are a tall, heavy-bodied, brachycephalic variety, often with thick eyebrows and brown eyes, and are very distinct from Nordids and the classic Mediterranean type. Coon attributes their presence to the Bronze Age invasions (who were made up of Bell Beaker people, probably a Dinaric-Corded-Borreby blend from Western/Central Europe). They really have little in common with Mediterraneans.

    But, I'm even sceptic that the insular "Meds" (such as shorter, more gracile phenotypes that can be found amongst the Welsh or Irish) are truly of Mediterranean extraction, as there seems to be no correlation between high levels of neolithic ancestry and "Med" phenotypes in Britain. How would you explain this?

    British "Meds", thus, must be predominantly descended from indigenous Western European populations that existed already during the Paleolithic and divergently developed a more gracile and neotenic apparence. Divergent evolution and miscegenation with other types will explain phenotypical differences to other Paleolithic groups of Western Europe such as the Basques.


    Nobody claimed otherwise.


    Thanks for the highly interesting information. There are, in fact, a couple of sub-racial types that have "no relation" to the ancient Aryans.

    I'll thus keep on to use my quotation marks.


    Nobody claimed otherwise.


    Nobody claimed otherwise.


    What we would need are definitely larger, representative samples, spread out over the whole nation or population group.

    But what people are interested in are exactly not a few individuals that deviate, but the characteristics of the mainstream or average of a population and its distance to other groups.

    Additionally, phenotypes can be (and are) often very misleading. One or a few different base sequences can trigger a totally different apparence. I agree in particular with Baker that of all racial characteristics, color, if considered in isolation, is the single most unreliable and insignificant.

    Thanks again for the excellent post!
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Saturday, April 19th, 2003 at 08:38 AM.

  7. #17
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    Originally posted by volksdeutsche

    I think that Coon's Keltic Nordic is basically Lundman's North-Atlantid. Now it's not my problem if nordish.com distorted Coon by for example making up an Anglo-Saxon type from Coon's plate Plate 33 NORDICS ALTERED BY NORTHWESTERN EUROPEAN UPPER PALAEOLITHIC MIXTURE: II in his work "The Races of Europe". I understand that it's because they want to popularise and politicise it. Brits can associate it with a type based in a cultural name, although almost anyone can in the end see it's a Falid (sometimes Gothic Nordid) type with a Dinarid strain. Look at the nasal shape.


    Hi Volks,

    I'm pretty sure that Coon himself and not just Nordish.com lists the Anglo-Saxon as an actual type. Here's what Coon wrote:


    "b) Anglo-Saxon Type: The old Germanic Reihengräber type, a heavy-boned, rather high-headed Nordic variety, most prevalent in northern Germany and England."


    I agree with you though that if the A-S exists, it is very similar to the Falid type. Perhaps with a higher skull than the Falid and showing more Corded ancestry?


    Very imformative posts by both you and Thorburn. Thank you.

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    Originally posted by dalonord
    I'm pretty sure that Coon himself and not just Nordish.com lists the Anglo-Saxon as an actual type. Here's what Coon wrote:

    "b) Anglo-Saxon Type: The old Germanic Reihengräber type, a heavy-boned, rather high-headed Nordic variety, most prevalent in northern Germany and England."

    I agree with you though that if the A-S exists, it is very similar to the Falid type. Perhaps with a higher skull than the Falid and showing more Corded ancestry?

    Very imformative posts by both you and Thorburn. Thank you.
    Actually, well-observed by both of you.

    Coon lists the Anglo-Saxon type, yes; what doesn't exist in his nomenclature is in fact the Phalic ("Fälish") sub-race. The Phalic type is a "stolen" concept from Günther and Lundman.

    Both are Nordic/UP intermediates with often astonishing resemblance. In order to avoid conflict, the SNPA declared the Phalic a "Nordic/Borreby" and the Anglo-Saxon a seemingly more variable "Nordic/Brünn/[Borreby]/[Corded]" intermediate. To throw in "Corded" as permitted minor or even "important" or "significant" element is congenial, because it allows Dinaric features to enter through the backdoor what closes the circle to Lundman's Faelid.

    It would have certainly been more practical and honest to consider to rely on only one type whose variability accounts for more or less distinct local forms.

    (Well, you have been both right.)
    Last edited by Thorburn; Thursday, April 17th, 2003 at 06:27 PM.

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    I just picked "I only date persons from the white race. They don't have to match my own phenotype or subracial heritage." First off, I don't even know enough about anthropology to know what subrace or phenotype I am, not to mention prospective dates.

    Vanessa and I look pretty different from each other, definitely not even similar types. Thing is, loving the person I'm with is more important to me than making sure my kids get my blond hair.

    I'd mostly draw the line with most Mediterraneans, I'm just more attracted to fairer-skinned girls. I like blond hair too, but it's obviously not very important, since every girl I've dated or been interested in dating has happened to be a brunette.
    Never stray from your Weapons
    When on the field-
    You never know
    When you may suddenly need your sword.

    -Havamal

  10. #20
    None
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


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    What about your preferences, Thorburn? We'd all like to know what you prefer.

    -Zoë

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