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Thread: How 'Pagan' Was Norse Paganism?

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Don't forget there were other exclusively monolatrous cults, like Sol Invictus, which were tolerated by the Romans,
    True....I've noted the Romans were quite tolerant when it came to religion. I also argue this helped bring about their downfall as well.

    and that some other imported cults like the cult around Isis were sometimes disfavoured as much as early Christianity.
    Ive never disputed this. In fact mathematicians were often persecuted for religious reasons as well.

    Its also almost certain that the so-called persecutions by the pagans were exaggerated by the literalist Christians.
    No I doubt it, the Romans were capable of staunch brutality in suppressing religions they didnt like. The Druids are perhaps the greatest example of this.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    It should be obvious to anyone not blinded by dogma that Earth-based Heathenism (of whatever ethno-linguistic affiliation) is far older than Christianity. The fact that we don't know as much about it (no thanks to early Christians and their destruction of Heathen artifacts) as we do Chritianity, in no way makes European Heathenism irrelevent, not worthy of study or any type of reconstruction in modern times a foolish thing.


    As for the notion that Chritianity influenced later Heathenisms--I'm sure it did to some extent. I have no examples on hand at the moment but I'm sure that a little research could yield some results.

    Equally though, Heathensim surely influenced advancing Christianity at some levels and it is fruitless to refute this. I've read many examples of such a thing and would be happy to post some should you so wish to read them.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Paganism is far older than Christianity. But I don't think that neccearly means Christianity doesn't belong in Europe. It has in many ways become Europeanized.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    The concept of Valhalla and the Christian Heaven have almost nothing in common apart from being a form of afterlife (which is found in thousands of other faiths). Valhalla is Odin's hall in Asgard, the home for those slain gloriously in battle, who are welcomed by Bragi and escorted to Valhalla by the Valkyries to wait there until Ragnarok. They continued to fight battles in Valhalla to make sure they were fit for Ragnarok.

    Christian Heaven is a peaceful, perfect place for anyone who obeys the Bible and accepts Jesus as their saviour. The Christian faith recognizes 3 realms: the earth, heaven and hell (though some sects preach a "purgatory" and different levels of hell/heaven). The Norse have a totally different system of realms found under the roots of Yggdrasil.

    Here are pre-Christian images depicting Vahalla:

    Here is an image of Odin and Valhalla on the largest of the image stones from the parish of Ardre, Gotland, ca 750 AD:


    Picture stone found at Tjängvide on the Swedish island of Gotland. This stone is now kept at the Statens Historiska Museet at Navavagen, Sweden. The top scene shows Odin astride his eight-legged horse Sleipnir approaching Valhalla. The bottom scene depicts a Viking warship. It is dated to 700-800 AD.


    Summarized timeline of Nordic conversion:
    Conversion to Christianity in Denmark: Late 10th century by King Harald Bluetooth
    Conversion to Christianity in Norway: Late 10th - early 11th century by Olaf Tryggvason
    Conversion to Christianity in Iceland: Late 10th - early 11th century by Olaf Tryggvason
    Conversion to Christianity in Sweden: 11th-12th centuries

    And these conversions were by no means complete conversions.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    I dont know what this has to do with the topic. Im arguing that we know very little about pre-Christian religions outside the Greeco-Roman religion. Im not debating the cultural differences between Celts, Balts, and Slavs.
    But from the similarities between the of pre-Christian survivals among the Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Slavic speakers, we can tell that they shared a heritage and especially when they are compared to the beliefs of other northern peoples who were never Christian, its possible to reconstruct some of these religions. So your belief that we know very little about indigenous northern religion is only partly true, more is known about them than you think.

    So shaman belts prove paganism survived? I consider this irrelevant.
    The shaman belt of Eurasia is the area above 50 degrees latitude where true shamanism is best known, and the folk religion in the Christian countries of norhern Europe, was also shamanic. This means that even though the region was officially Christian and not practicing a pre-Christian religion, northern Europe continued to be shamanic.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson
    It should be obvious to anyone not blinded by dogma that Earth-based Heathenism (of whatever ethno-linguistic affiliation) is far older than Christianity.
    It should be obvious to anybody that I never made such an argument.

    The fact that we don't know as much about it (no thanks to early Christians and their destruction of Heathen artifacts)
    Yes, blame everything on the Christians. Nevermind we know little of paganism because the pagans lacked writing systems, yet it was we bad old Christians who wrote these pagans myths down. In this case, The Poetic Edda is our main source on Norse paganism, yet it was written by Christian monks.

    I've already posted about how Christian poets in Ireland preserved the memory of many pagan sacred places, long after they were abandonded by the pagans themselves.

    as we do Chritianity, in no way makes European Heathenism irrelevent, not worthy of study or any type of reconstruction in modern times a foolish thing.
    Kinda hard to reconstruct something we know little about, dont you think? May explain why neo-paganism is filled with all sorts of garbage.


    As for the notion that Chritianity influenced later Heathenisms--I'm sure it did to some extent. I have no examples on hand at the moment but I'm sure that a little research could yield some results.
    I've already posted examples of how Christianity influenced heathenism.

    Equally though, Heathensim surely influenced advancing Christianity at some levels and it is fruitless to refute this.
    No, but as Fletcher explains it is a moot point.

    I've read many examples of such a thing and would be happy to post some should you so wish to read them.
    Hopefully its something more than just "Pagans used easter eggs, therefore Christianity is paganized. Pagans decorated trees, Christianity was paganized" type stuff.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lg
    The concept of Valhalla and the Christian Heaven have almost nothing in common apart from being a form of afterlife (which is found in thousands of other faiths). Valhalla is Odin's hall in Asgard, the home for those slain gloriously in battle, who are welcomed by Bragi and escorted to Valhalla by the Valkyries to wait there until Ragnarok. They continued to fight battles in Valhalla to make sure they were fit for Ragnarok.
    Ragnarok, a concept that most scholars on the issue believe was a Christian influence.

    Summarized timeline of Nordic conversion:
    Conversion to Christianity in Denmark: Late 10th century by King Harald Bluetooth
    Conversion to Christianity in Norway: Late 10th - early 11th century by Olaf Tryggvason
    Conversion to Christianity in Iceland: Late 10th - early 11th century by Olaf Tryggvason
    Conversion to Christianity in Sweden: 11th-12th centuries

    And these conversions were by no means complete conversions.
    Indeed they werent. In fact as Peter Sawyer explain, worship of Christ is first evidenced by Vikings in the 800's. Contrary to popular myth, Vikings were not staunch anti-Christians....worship of Christ was popular and respected among them. Although in truth it was more Christo-Pagan in nature, but nevertheless by the 800's we're already seeing some Christian influence in Viking society and thought. As for conversion, its interesting that the

    Sawyers note that the official conversions may have occured sooner than it commonly recorded. Sweeden supposedly officially converted in the 11th century, yet the Kings were printing Christianized currency for the kingdom during the late 10th century. So theres much confusion on when the Vikings actually officially converted.

    As for your "pictures", many of those dated to around when Christian influence was first starting to be noticed in Scandinavia. Need we forget at Fletcher explains, Vikings were actually trading and being in contact with other Europeans just before the collaspe of the Western Roman Empire. So even the earliest picture you posted(assuming it actually depicts valhalla, which it could posssibly not) would still be a few centuries after Vikings were coming into contact with other Europeans who were already on their way towards Christianization.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    It should be obvious to anybody that I never made such an argument.



    Yes, blame everything on the Christians. Nevermind we know little of paganism because the pagans lacked writing systems, yet it was we bad old Christians who wrote these pagans myths down. In this case, The Poetic Edda is our main source on Norse paganism, yet it was written by Christian monks.
    LOL. In other words "hey, you owe us thanks for preserving a rather diminutive portion of your heritage... afterall, WE were the ones who destroyed it in the first place!" Yes, thank you Christians for destroying my heritage and at least writting down the last bit of poems you spared of destruction, from the kindness of your blessed hearts!

    Fact is, we heathens didn't need to write anything down because tradition and religion were passed down orally and culturally. The "We today" you speak of (Christians today), would be the same "we" as the times of old, and we'd know just as much today as we did back then WITHOUT Christianity. There was no posed threat ready to take that away, so there was no need to worry about keeping it 'safe'. Christianity soon changed that.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Taras Bulba
    It should be obvious to anybody that I never made such an argument.
    I didn't say that you did. What I meant was--that complex concepts such as Valhalla, Ragnorak, etc. don't just 'come to be'. They take generations to evolve, even as Christian tales do. So, it is my thought that these notions, or at least their foundations are more deeply rooted in time than the overlap time between Christianity reaching northern Europe and any blending that may have occurred. In fact, it is likely that such entities share common origins in the thoughts of man from very remote times--long before Jesus or Wotan ever joined the crew...


    Yes, blame everything on the Christians. Nevermind we know little of paganism because the pagans lacked writing systems, yet it was we bad old Christians who wrote these pagans myths down. In this case, The Poetic Edda is our main source on Norse paganism, yet it was written by Christian monks.
    Well, it's pretty well-known that much (though by no means all) of the Christianizing took place at the sword's tip and that sacred Heathen sites were altered (no pun intended) or destroyed. I don't "blame" Christians for anything. I just stick with the facts of the matter.

    As for writing--what of the Runes? Was this not a system of writing? Also, again, I refer to the loss of Heathen "material" at the hands of the Christianizers as partly the reason for any lack of knowledge.



    I've already posted about how Christian poets in Ireland preserved the memory of many pagan sacred places, long after they were abandonded by the pagans themselves.
    I remember the thread and I am glad that some material survived--regardless of who wrote it.


    Kinda hard to reconstruct something we know little about, dont you think? May explain why neo-paganism is filled with all sorts of garbage.
    Well sure. But, does that make any attempt invalid? Surely not. If anthropologist had this attitude of yours, we would be sorely lacking in our reconstructed views of human evolution. Oh but that's right--humans are only 6000 years old or something like that, right? Talk about garbage!





    I've already posted examples of how Christianity influenced heathenism.
    Well, I read the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread--but I don't think I've seen any others. Please share.

    No, but as Fletcher explains it is a moot point.
    Yes, you wrote: "He notes that anykind of argument for "pagan" influence on Christianity can only be made on flimsy grounds"

    Why is this any more "flimsy" than the visa-versa?



    Hopefully its something more than just "Pagans used easter eggs, therefore Christianity is paganized. Pagans decorated trees, Christianity was paganized" type stuff.

    I'm glad that you know of two of the more glaring examples.

    I would never be so pig-headed as to say that Christianity had zero influence on the various Heathen pantheons/belief systems. Frankly I do now know one way or the other as I have not looked into the matter deeply enough. Conversely, I also would not be so stubborn to say that Heathenisms had no influence on Christianity. Surely they did and it is well known and documented. So, basically, my stance is that there was a period in history where there was some overlap and some blending between the two and that during this period, it would be absurd to think that they were insular from each other and that there was no mutual influence. Pretty straight forward, really.

    I do take some issue with your apparent attempt at diminishing Heathenism both historically and in modern times. It seems that you wish that it never existed and that it had not made its moderate resurgence in more recent years. If this is not the case, then I apologize for my misinterpretation. But if indeed, I am somewhat near to the truth, then I don't understand. Why berate those in modern times who wish to seek a deep and organic spirituality? Frankly, I could care less what faith you follow. That is your own business. If only your spiritual ancestors felt the same toward mine--we would likely not be having this conversation.

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    Post Re: How 'pagan' was Norse paganism?

    I will go more in depth into this topic as time goes by. I also recieved a pm from Wintermute on this question, which I will also deal with. Apparently people are setting up strawmen arguments, or even simply misunderstanding what my argument is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson

    I didn't say that you did. What I meant was--that complex concepts such as Valhalla, Ragnorak, etc. don't just 'come to be'.
    I agree with you, I never said anything contrary to this. What I am arguing(along with my sources) that Ragnorak and Valhallha were possibly Christian influences. Now, did this happen overnight? Absolutely not, Birgit and Peter Sawyer both note that Christianization was a slow process. Basically at first you had a period of I guess we could call "Christo-Paganism" where paganism and Christianity coexisted and even mixed together. However, this phase was soon followed by a thorough Christianization of the Northern Peoples.

    So, it is my thought that these notions, or at least their foundations are more deeply rooted in time than the overlap time between Christianity reaching northern Europe and any blending that may have occurred.
    Ok I never denied this either. Of course in order for Valhalla to have a pitch with the Vikings, some kind of preliminary belief of such a place would have been there. Just like Classical pagans were somewhat already aware of notions of savior gods before Christianity came along. So Valhalla probably was not created in a vaccuum. But the earliest we know of Valhalla as we are familar doesnt occur in the tenth century AD

    Well, it's pretty well-known that much (though by no means all) of the Christianizing took place at the sword's tip and that sacred Heathen sites were altered (no pun intended) or destroyed. I don't "blame" Christians for anything. I just stick with the facts of the matter.
    Of course, all religions have blood on their hands, including paganism.

    As for writing--what of the Runes? Was this not a system of writing?
    If it I was, Im suggesting for the time being it was not one that could support a fully literate culture.....but again Im suggesting this possibily since I havent read about the rune system for several years.

    Also, again, I refer to the loss of Heathen "material" at the hands of the Christianizers as partly the reason for any lack of knowledge.
    Of course, Fletcher even notes this as part of the picture. But the fact the pagans were not very literate or kept extensive records is probably a bigger reason. Which in that case it'd extremely hard to destroy as much.


    Well sure. But, does that make any attempt invalid?
    Because we dont know for sure what the pagans converted from. I've never said we dont anything about paganism, but most of it is largely a generalized view. Fletcher makes this clear.

    [quote]
    Surely not. If anthropologist had this attitude of yours, we would be sorely lacking in our reconstructed views of human evolution. Oh but that's right--humans are only 6000 years old or something like that, right? Talk about garbage!

    Yes, you wrote: "He notes that anykind of argument for "pagan" influence on Christianity can only be made on flimsy grounds"

    Why is this any more "flimsy" than the visa-versa?
    Because the Christian kept extensive records while the pagans did not.

    I'm glad that you know of two of the more glaring examples.
    Well this was presented to me as evidence of pagan influence on Christianity. From the big picture, I find that irrelevant.

    I would never be so pig-headed as to say that Christianity had zero influence on the various Heathen pantheons/belief systems.
    Well Im glad you dont deny the obvious like other pagans do.

    Conversely, I also would not be so stubborn to say that Heathenisms had no influence on Christianity. Surely they did and it is well known and documented.
    Yes and Wintermute presented "evidence" of this with a quote from Sam Francis' review of "the Germanization of Christianity". Of course this quote(and I will post it but right now Im short on time) didnt really refute my argument, instead it proved a process we Christians like to call "inculturation"(that is Christianity absorbs the local customs of a people), but it didnt prove a "heathenization" of Christianity.

    See Christianity adopting itself to local customs is not heathenization but localization. The two are not really the same, and often heathens make this mistake(to be fair for understandable reasons).

    I will pick up "the Germanization of Early Christianity" later....but for now I'll rely on information I have on the Christianization of the Celts, which theories concerning that process are similar(if not almost exact) to what we're discussing with the German conversion to Christianity.

    I've posted quotes from Ted Olsen's book on Celtic Christianity, and he notes how in recent times the theories concering syncretism have been made as a way to de-emphasize the Christianity of the Celts, that the localised Christianity in many ways a mere gloss over their original paganism. Ted Olsen argues this when concerning the Celts, as do I but on a larger scale.

    This is perhaps what Im mainly arguing against, that somehow Christianity adopting itself to native customs(including religious customs) somehow equals a "heathenization" per se or rather a "de-Christianization". De-Christianization would actually have to involve a theological element, but often it didnt. It was largely cultural, not theological.

    So in this case particularly the "Germanization" was cultural not theological; and sadly people lose sight of this. This is largely what I have seen with the evidence pointing to heathen influence on Christianity, it seems largely cultural not theological for the most part.

    So, basically, my stance is that there was a period in history where there was some overlap and some blending between the two and that during this period, it would be absurd to think that they were insular from each other and that there was no mutual influence. Pretty straight forward, really.
    Ok I agree with you. However I pointing to things in perspective.....the "pagan"(I prefer local but I'll go along for now) influence on Christianity was largely cultural not theological. Christianity, unlike Islam, does not impose one culture's values on another. In fact the Apostles determined early on that a christian could celebrate the faith within their own local customs, the idea of imposing Hebrew customs like circumcision on non-Hebrew Christians was rejected.

    However it seem the Christian influence on paganism was more theological, like as my sources above stating that the concepts of valhalla and many attributes of the Gods were influenced by Christian concepts.

    So Im denying a two-way influence, Im denying they were of the same nature and impact.

    I do take some issue with your apparent attempt at diminishing Heathenism both historically and in modern times.
    I take offense at attempts by Heathens to diminish Christianity both historically and in modern times, so this feeling appears to be mutual.

    It seems that you wish that it never existed and that it had not made its moderate resurgence in more recent years.
    No I do not believe that. I have stated many times Im willing to cooperate with pagans, on the condition they respect my faith(Christianity) as a legitimate part of Europe's heritage as well. I feel the pagan heritage as pre-Christian not necessarily anti-Christian. Ted Olsen explains this well when concerning Patrick's attempt at explaining the trinity using the shamrock(Olsen saids this never happened for Patrick had no need to explain the trinity to the Celts), and I'll post what he has to say.

    I dont disrespect the pagan heritage, I view the Christian heritage took the beauty and glory of it and improved upon it. The Christian heritage is built on top the pagan one.

    As for its modern resurgence...although I admit I laugh at some attempts(and how it bears little resemblence to historical paganism), my big problem is how neo-paganism seems to be built more on anti-Christianity than actually respecting the old pagan heritage. Thats my problem....not that people wish to worship Odin, etc. thats your free choice before God. My problem is that somehow worshipping Odin equals the destruction of Christianity and destroying churches. And many pagans themselves are getting tired of these types as well.

    It's really the anti-Christian fanatics among pagans that really hurt what respect I have for the pagan heritage. Of course much shit comes from my side as well, and I often argue with those Christians. I've even defended Christo-Paganism, the attempt to synthesis Christianity and paganism as a noble effort, as long as the Christian element is geniune(often it is, often it's not). Personally Im not going down that path, but I'll respect those who do.

    Im not anti-pagan, at least outside of theology Im not.


    If this is not the case, then I apologize for my misinterpretation.
    I accept.

    Why berate those in modern times who wish to seek a deep and organic spirituality?
    I dont, I just argue against the view that Christianity isnt a deep and organic spirituality as well.

    Frankly, I could care less what faith you follow. That is your own business.
    I agree....thats your choice before God. Im definately not going to tell others they're going to Hell, when my I know my own fate is not certain. All I ask is that people respect my faith, and I will respect theirs.

    Well I have to go, I'll post more on this later.

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